Outside the Lines to discuss Sherman hire (On now)
CLB2008
2:04p, 11/27/07
CLB2008
2672 posts, joined 04/20/2007
Its on ESPN

I thought that he said they are going to discuss why the Black Coaches Association has a problem with the hiring process that was used?!?!

It will be on after they finish coverage of Taylor's death.
ChemEAg08
2:05p, 11/27/07
ChemEAg08
2483 posts, joined 11/25/2004
Doing a project...

Post key notes...
CLB2008
2:08p, 11/27/07
CLB2008
2672 posts, joined 04/20/2007
I will try. Has anyone heard any other news about this?
jmtamu
2:08p, 11/27/07
jmtamu
22284 posts, joined 08/11/2002
post notes.
CLB2008
2:20p, 11/27/07
CLB2008
2672 posts, joined 04/20/2007
Floyd Keith Executive Director was on saying they are upset because Sherman was the only man considered for the job.

Said that black coaches should have been considered.

Said that if he were to grade A&M and Ole Miss' hires, he would give them both F's.


Get a grip buddy.
Brock Samson
2:20p, 11/27/07
Brock Samson
2635 posts, joined 10/27/2007
If we hired a Black coach and only interviews him would we be racist against whites?
stantheman01
2:34p, 11/27/07
stantheman01
1939 posts, joined 09/21/2007
Brock...are you copying and pasting that reply. I've read the same thing about 3 times in different threads.
AggieBattleAxe
2:35p, 11/27/07
AggieBattleAxe
5997 posts, joined 10/07/2002
Why should I give a rat's azz what Floyd Kieth thinks again??

He's paid to look for things to cry about.
Old_Ag_91
2:37p, 11/27/07
Old_Ag_91
13673 posts, joined 12/01/1999
I was fixing to ask the same thing Brock just did. It's ridiculous. Sherman was a previous coach here.. let's just completely forget that or the fact that he COACHED IN THE NFL AND WAS SUCCESSFUL AT IT. We need to be looking at skin color, right, man what were we thinking? This is racist alright, but in the opposite direction.
EEAg07
2:37p, 11/27/07
EEAg07
765 posts, joined 10/15/2006
Brock got busted!
Andy Pipkin
2:39p, 11/27/07
Andy Pipkin
1926 posts, joined 10/02/2007
It's really not racism at all. More like cronyism.

Sherman was a known entity, they interviewed him and then offered him the job.

It is not like they went through tons of interviews with a bunch of white guys while weeding out every black applicant. Hell they didn't even post the job that long.
Nacho Mama
2:39p, 11/27/07
Nacho Mama
2037 posts, joined 06/23/2006
The funny thing about this is, there were a lot of WHITE guys who weren't interviewed either.
Andy Pipkin
2:42p, 11/27/07
Andy Pipkin
1926 posts, joined 10/02/2007
Officially there was only one guy interviewed he happened to be white but he also happened to be connected to the school through numerous parties and past employment.

It is cronyism not racism. And it will be cronyism if we hire Sumlin and/or Holland.

Note I am not saying cronyism is always bad but that Sherman's hiring is much more indicative of that than even the most subtle institutional racism.
BoyNamedSue
2:42p, 11/27/07
BoyNamedSue
10813 posts, joined 10/22/2006
It has little to do with A&M - you guys just picked your coach first so you get the tip of the spear. The facts are out of 100+ D1A coaches only a handful are black. This upsets a lot of people (as it should), especially considering how many black players are showcased every season on the field.

Couple this with the appearance that no other coaches, white or black, got a shot at the job and you've got yourselves a media story.
Lefty Ag '89
2:46p, 11/27/07
Lefty Ag '89
5614 posts, joined 12/26/1999
I only interviewed on persion (an Indian) to work for me!!!! Man!!!! I am a racist! I didn't even interview the white man, the black man or even the mexican!
Old_Ag_91
2:51p, 11/27/07
Old_Ag_91
13673 posts, joined 12/01/1999
Lefty, I am so offended. Damn you. A pox on your dead dog's chew toy.
Old_Ag_91
2:52p, 11/27/07
Old_Ag_91
13673 posts, joined 12/01/1999
dp

[This message has been edited by Old_Ag_91 (edited 11/27/2007 2:52p).]
nactownag
3:03p, 11/27/07
nactownag
39039 posts, joined 08/13/2007
Likeke98
3:08p, 11/27/07
Likeke98
2246 posts, joined 09/20/2003
I'm all for the mandatory interviews if they address the lack of diversity on the playing field. Let's just have quotas to make sure everyone is equally represented.

I'd be offended to find out I was the token interview.

What a bunch of babies.
Ag with kids
3:36p, 11/27/07
Ag with kids
8315 posts, joined 11/24/1999
quote:
The facts are out of 100+ D1A coaches only a handful are black.


~12% of the population is black.

So, if there are ~13 black head coaches of the 117 D1 schools, things are close to being right...

How many ARE there?

If anything, blacks are OVERREPRESENTED in the player ranks...

I don't see a problem, though...
overwater
3:38p, 11/27/07
overwater
2778 posts, joined 11/13/2005
"the lack of diversity on the playing field"


yea...lets get this going...
Daveintx
3:56p, 11/27/07
Daveintx
16164 posts, joined 10/16/2000
oh please.....

If you know whom you want to hire, then you should be able to do so without having to worry about backlash from elsewhere....

They came in knowing whom they wanted, and they went and got him. There is nothing more or nothing else to it.
MouthBQ98
4:04p, 11/27/07
MouthBQ98
83244 posts, joined 08/30/2005
"Making haaate...out of nothing at all.." /Cheesy Air Supply song...
Big Sugi
4:20p, 11/27/07
Big Sugi
11006 posts, joined 10/10/1999
quote:
It's really not racism at all. More like cronyism.

Actually, that's part of the problem; crony relationships were established at a time when overt racism was even more prevalent, and they allow the effects of racism to remain even when that overt racism is gone. That's the reason the BCA fights so hard to get interviews for minority candidates.

quote:
~12% of the population is black.

So, if there are ~13 black head coaches of the 117 D1 schools, things are close to being right...

How many ARE there?

Five, now that Karl Dorrell was fired. So blacks are majorly underrepresented in comparison to the population as a whole and overwhelmingly underrepresented in comparison to the pool of football players from which more than 97% of head coaches are drawn.



aTmAg
4:30p, 11/27/07
aTmAg
34086 posts, joined 12/17/2001
Everytime this debate starts, I always bring up the fact that the few blacks who do make it to the position of HC do not kick the crap out of everybody else. That's how you can tell it has nothing to do with racism. Racism was keeping blacks out of football, basketball, etc. back in the day. So the few blacks that were able to break through in those sports dominated because the top .1% of blacks were competing against the top 10% of whites.

[This message has been edited by aTmAg (edited 11/27/2007 4:35p).]
LawAg05
4:37p, 11/27/07
LawAg05
3171 posts, joined 10/10/2005
This is a stupid point to argue and I wish our society would burn the freaking race card. Everything is a civil rights violation when you dont placate a minority group in some way or another. Sherman was a good hire. Period.

All of our candidates for HC were white: Spurrier, Tedford, Peterson, Tubs, and Sherman.

The reason for this is simple: They were the best candidates available!

This same logic is applied to the playing field ona daily basis. The best candidates for a position on the field are given the spot. There isn't a discussion about playing the white cornerback so the Houston mom's club can sleep at night.

You play, start, or hire the best person available.

edit: sp

[This message has been edited by LawAg05 (edited 11/27/2007 4:37p).]
Big Sugi
4:59p, 11/27/07
Big Sugi
11006 posts, joined 10/10/1999
quote:
Everytime this debate starts, I always bring up the fact that the few blacks who do make it to the position of HC do not kick the crap out of everybody else

Right . . . and who coached the teams in the Super Bowl last year? How many black head coaches get the premier college jobs that would allow them to build programs that "kick the crap out of everybody else?" So far, I've seen two at marginal top-tier programs (Ty Willingham and Karl Dorrell); both of them had ten-win seasons, and both of them were fired despite records equal or superior to those of their white predecessors and successors.

[This message has been edited by Big Sugi (edited 11/27/2007 4:59p).]
MouthBQ98
5:34p, 11/27/07
MouthBQ98
83244 posts, joined 08/30/2005
Sugi....by your own reasoning, if we use quotas as a standard, a LOT of black student athletes should not see the field, and we should have far more whites and asians and hispanics and other underrepresented groups on the playing field...

you can't use quotas ethically. All you can do is try to examine WHY the actual numbers of coaches, or players or whatever might be inconsistent with their numbers in the general population, and look for reasons why, and eliminate those that are based on racism. You can't eliminate the others based on culture, or personal preferences, or mere chance, or other factors not having to do with race....

It is pretty easy to make the case that enforcement of quotas encourages racism as much as it could be said to alleviate it's effects....

Let's not cry the rascism wolf where the wolf of racism isn't lurking...lest it be ignored when it really does show up.
Ag with kids
5:41p, 11/27/07
Ag with kids
8315 posts, joined 11/24/1999
quote:
So blacks are majorly underrepresented in comparison to the population as a whole and overwhelmingly underrepresented in comparison to the pool of football players from which more than 97% of head coaches are drawn.



A lot of the coaches are older...

They would have played when the pool of players was much whiter (late 60s, early 70s)...

FWIW, are you alleging racism is in play?

[This message has been edited by Ag with kids (edited 11/27/2007 5:43p).]
NoACDamnit
5:43p, 11/27/07
NoACDamnit
58055 posts, joined 10/14/1999
Posted on general, but these guys must not watch the NHL. I don't know that there's ever been a coach that wasn't a white male.
Ag with kids
5:44p, 11/27/07
Ag with kids
8315 posts, joined 11/24/1999
quote:
I don't know that there's ever been a coach that wasn't a white male.


I don't watch much hockey...

Has there ever been a PLAYER that wasn't???
stetson
5:47p, 11/27/07
stetson
13746 posts, joined 10/16/2001
My understanding is that Byrne hired a consulting firm to perform an analysis of coaches for the position and put together a list for Byrne. Sherman was at the top of the list. Whether he was placed at the top by the firm or by Byrne I do not know. The interview (as with most) was probably confirm that he would be a good fit (personality, philosophically) and rule out him being a complete and inarticulate goober. If he tanked the interview, Bryne would have moved onto to #2 (whoever that was).

[This message has been edited by stetson (edited 11/27/2007 5:48p).]
NoACDamnit
5:53p, 11/27/07
NoACDamnit
58055 posts, joined 10/14/1999
quote:
Has there ever been a PLAYER that wasn't???


Several. It's around 15 current players with quite a few in the past. Calgary's current captain and Edmonton's goalie when they were winning cup after cup are black. The latter got into coaching but wasn't a head coach.

There are a few Hispanics and a handful of Eskimos.

There are no Asians, but my brother used to think that Benoit Hogue was. (Ben Wa Ho)
Big Sugi
6:06p, 11/27/07
Big Sugi
11006 posts, joined 10/10/1999
quote:
Sugi....by your own reasoning, if we use quotas as a standard, a LOT of black student athletes should not see the field, and we should have far more whites and asians and hispanics and other underrepresented groups on the playing field...

It's not a quota; it's a statistical analysis. A standard distribution would expect twice as many black coaches if based on
the general population, and at least ten times as many black coaches based on the population of football players (and that number will go up in the next two decades to reflect the greater number of black football players).


The disparity in football players is attributable to talent; players have the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities immediately and are selected on that basis. Coaches, on the other hand, must be given an opportunity to demonstrate their ability. If they don't receive that opportunity, they can't demonstrate their ability. In light of that fact, the presence of statistical anomalies on this order of magnitude strongly suggests an outside influence at work - in this case, racism (although not necessarily conscious racism) and its protege cronyism are the likeliest factors.


[This message has been edited by Big Sugi (edited 11/27/2007 6:09p).]
aTmAg
6:17p, 11/27/07
aTmAg
34086 posts, joined 12/17/2001
quote:
Right . . . and who coached the teams in the Super Bowl last year?
They were hired on the free market like everybody else. There was no quota system that required Tampa Bay, Indianapolis, and Pittsburg to make those hires. That is exactly how it should have been done.
quote:
How many black head coaches get the premier college jobs that would allow them to build programs that "kick the crap out of everybody else?" So far, I've seen two at marginal top-tier programs (Ty Willingham and Karl Dorrell); both of them had ten-win seasons, and both of them were fired despite records equal or superior to those of their white predecessors and successors.
I think it was stupid for ND to fire Ty Willingham, when they did. But they didn’t do it for racist reasons, they thought that they had Urban Meyer in the bag. Having one 10 win season doesn’t mean that you should be coach forever, just like RC’s 11 win season in 98 doesn’t erase his 6-6 season in 2002. These 2 or 3 black coaches represent the best that the black coaching community has to offer, unless you think that these schools are purposefully hiring sub par black coaches for some reason. That means that they should, in theory, compare to the top 2-3 coaches in the rest of college. But they don’t. Ty Willingham is currently 4-8 at Washington and Karl Dorrell is 6-5 at UCLA having lost 44-6 to unranked Utah and to an otherwise 2-9 Notre Dame. There is no way that you can say those records are stellar. Hell, we just fired Fran for going 7-5 after having a 9 win season last year. Compare that to when racism really did keep blacks out of sports. When able to play, the first black players dominated their sports.

BTW, before you accuse me of racism, I’ve been arguing on the football board for us to hire Sumlin as HC for a good while now. Not because I think we need to “even the score” but because I think he’d be a damn good coach.

[This message has been edited by aTmAg (edited 11/27/2007 6:19p).]
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