Interesting college tournament rules situation

1,229 Views | 44 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by USGA77
USGA77
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AG
The biggest challenge in handling rulings in amateur events is often times determining the facts. In many cases, players and witnesses will use terms that mean one thing to the lay person, but have a different meaning in the definitions in the rules of golf.

Here is an interesting situation that occurred in a college tournament recently. Notice that what is presented below is testimony by the protagonists. Your job is to interpret the statement and make the correct ruling.

During a stroke play collegiate tournament, Player T comes to an official with an incident that occurred several holes before. Due to the complexity of the incident, the referee elects to review the incident with Player T's coach in the scoring area prior to scorecards being signed.

The coach described the incident: "Player T's tee shot went into the desert to the right of the fairway. She found a ball that she believed was her ball near a burrowing animal hole. She lifted and dropped the ball to take relief. She played the ball, and as Player T walked toward the putting green she saw her ball that she played from the tee and realized she had played a wrong ball. Her ball played from the tee was in another burrowing animal hole so she lifted and dropped the ball and completed the hole with it."

"She played a wrong ball. She didn't mean to play a wrong ball."

Discussions with the coach were challenging. What is your ruling and logic?
bagger05
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I'll take a stab at it.

By dropping the wrong ball she wasn't playing the wrong ball, she illegally substituted the ball. And I guess she also played from the wrong place. I guess that means it's three strokes?

After it was illegally substituted she was supposed to keep playing the illegally substituted ball, so when she went back to her other ball and dropped it, she illegally substituted and played from the wrong place again? So six total strokes?
Chipotlemonger
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More than 2 strokes, that's for sure. Would be hard in the moment to not finish out the hole with the original tee ball, but should've realized the penalty would compound if she went back to the original ball and not just finish out with the wrong replacement ball, and take the subsequent stroke penalty from that.
Icecream_Ag
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S
in HS I played at a tournament where they told us before starting that if we have that situation, play both out and mark both scores and the coaches and rules officials would figure out the situation and let us know what score to mark.
bagger05
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I think this is probably the rule you're referring to, Icecream.

3-3. Doubt as to Procedure
• a. Procedure
In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.

After the doubtful situation has arisen and before taking further action, the competitor must announce to his marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit.

The competitor must report the facts of the situation to the Committee before returning his score card. If he fails to do so, he is disqualified.
TexAgs Legend
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Player is disqualified. Also, everyone she's playing with is disqualified and the rest of the field is penalized two strokes to make sure that enough people are arbitrarily punished.
texagg14
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She takes a 9 on the hole and if she's already signed her card then she's DQ'd.


Had to enforce a very similar situation with some dbag from Houston memorial back in high school. Lippy, cheating mofo almost got smacked.
texagg14
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AG
To enact rule 3-3 you have to state that you're playing two balls in accordance with rule 3-3.

She just played two balls and didn't know any better about the rules so she receives a 9, or the whatever the stroke limit is women's college golf. If they don't have one then I'm pretty sure she's DQ'd.
texagg14
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Nvm, this dude above me C&P the actual rule, my fault.
texagg14
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quote:
in HS I played at a tournament where they told us before starting that if we have that situation, play both out and mark both scores and the coaches and rules officials would figure out the situation and let us know what score to mark.



Almost. Have to declare which one you want to be scored.

[This message has been edited by Texagg14 (edited 4/21/2014 1:26p).]
booradley
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AG
simple wrong ball infraction. drops don't matter. she played the wrong ball. then played the correct ball. 2 stroke penalty.

what did they rule?
texagg14
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^^^^ Lightbulb.

Should be talking to the other players in her group and the player herself, though, not her coach. But this guy above me found the obvious answer. Over analysis on my part.
bagger05
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AG
Another interesting thing to consider, did she find her original ball within five minutes of when she started looking for it?
AgDotCom
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Well I already know one of the results.

My head exploded while reading this.
bagger05
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quote:
Should be talking to the other players in her group and the player herself, though, not her coach. But this guy above me found the obvious answer. Over analysis on my part

I'm still betting that USGA77 wouldn't try to trick us like that. Gotta be something weird and no way would the coach be mad about a simple wrong ball decision.
agsalaska
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Ive never been good at this, but I am gong to guess Booradley is right.
USGA77
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To Bagger's comment--no tricks here. The ruling doesn't hinge on who the referee talks to. Officials can and should determine the facts from any and all pertinent parties. In this situation, the referee talked to the player, the fellow competitors, and the player's coach. The facts as reported through the coach are not in dispute.

Also, to comment on something else--the amount of time it took the player to find her original ball played from the tee is not relevant to making the correct ruling. There was not a ball search involved.

Nice discussion, keep it going! This is a hard one but one of the best real-world illustrations of several of the definitions, and one rule, that I've seen in a while.

I will post the ruling tomorrow. So far, no one has posted the correct ruling. A few are sniffing down the right trail, though.

[This message has been edited by USGA77 (edited 4/21/2014 3:28p).]

[This message has been edited by USGA77 (edited 4/21/2014 3:29p).]
bagger05
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Okay, I still think that the ball was not a wrong ball, but a substituted ball even though it was substituted incorrectly. My logic would be that dropping a new ball with the intent to put it in play is in fact putting it into play, and therefore is substituting the ball illegally even if you did it on accident (identify your ball, people).

In addition to incorrectly substituting she also played from the wrong place, per 20-7 she can't be also penalized for the illegal substitution. So after she played the first ball she incurred a two stroke penalty for playing from the wrong place but no penalty for playing an incorrectly substituted ball.

After playing from the wrong place (assuming she did not gain a significant advantage) she is supposed to hole out with the ball played from the wrong place. So after she saw her original ball, when she lifted and dropped it she once again made an illegal substitution and played from the wrong place. Basically just repeated the same mistake over again and got two more strokes for playing from the wrong place.

End result is four strokes for playing from the wrong place twice.


Still probably wrong but judging from USGA's clues in the OP I think the "wrong" vs. "substitute" is the big issue.

[This message has been edited by bagger05 (edited 4/21/2014 4:42p).]
1208HawkTree
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Ball 1 is "lost" when the player inadvertently chose to play the wrong ball, then subsequently drop the wrong ball (thus, "abandoned" original ball). By not going back to the tee, she also played from the wrong location. No mention if it was the same type of ball, which if the one ball rule was in effect, would have further penalty.

Lost ball - stroke and distance. Should have been hitting 3 from the tee.
Wrong ball - 2 strokes
Illegally substituting a ball - 2 shots


[This message has been edited by 1208hawktree (edited 4/21/2014 11:46p).]
aggiebrother33
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Since she found her original ball, the first "substituted" ball becomes unplayable. She receives a 2 stroke penalty for wrong ball. Especially since she did not finish the home with the wrong ball.
BreNayPop
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2 stroke penalty for wrong ball played. Should have played both out and then life would be easier.
stick93
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I don't know the answer but two things jump out at me. 1. The first ball was "near" a burrowing animal hole. The second was "in" a hole. 2. It appears that she did not consult anyone at the time, only several holes later.

My guess is that her penalty stems from an illegal drop and not the wrong ball. Not sure if it cost her strokes, disqualification, or water board torture. Whatever the result, she deserved it. Always get an opinion/ruling, especially when you are about to lay your hands on your ball to take a drop.

Edit: I think that there should be a disqualification. Teeing off on the next hole in stroke play sealed her fate.

[This message has been edited by Stick93 (edited 4/22/2014 7:06a).]
bagger05
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quote:
I don't know the answer but two things jump out at me. 1. The first ball was "near" a burrowing animal hole. The second was "in" a hole.

I noticed this as well, but assumed that the burrowing animal hole interfered with her stance or swing.

I did kinda miss the part about her not telling an official until a few holes later, but I figure that she at least had to tell her playing companions about it. How on earth would someone play two different balls without anyone else noticing?
USGA77
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Thanks to everyone for posting. The correct ruling is found in parts of several posts, so I’ll pull it together for you and then try to explain why this is the correct ruling.

Player T is disqualified. When Player T dropped and played a substituted ball near where she expected her original ball to be, the substituted ball became the ball in play and, since the location of the original ball was not known at the time, the applicable Rule was Rule 27-1 (Lost ball). The dropped ball was played a significant distance closer to the hole than the teeing ground and therefore Player T had committed a serious breach of Rule 27-1 and was required to correct her error before teeing off on the next hole. Since Player T did not correct her serious breach of Rule 27-1, the penalty is disqualification.

When the stroke was made with the substituted ball, the original ball also became a “Lost Ball” – see item “e” in the Definition of “Lost Ball”. Also, see Decision 15/14 for a similar situation.

The fact that she played the original ball after it was "lost" is a moot point. But it is true, as some have noted, that in doing so she played a wrong ball. But that's not the path to arrive at the correct ruling in this case.

That’s the ruling. Now for some explanation and context:

1. The first ball that she lifted and dropped from the burrowing animal hole, which was not the ball she played from the tee, is not a wrong ball. It is a substituted ball, as Bagger pointed out. That’s one of the hardest concepts to learn, and it took me years. Basic difference between a substituted ball and a wrong ball is this: when you put a ball in your hand and drop it, and it’s not the ball you started play of the hole with, it’s a substituted ball.

2. Now that we know the status of this first ball in the burrowing animal hole, the original ball played from the tee has to be deemed “lost.” Why? Because she put ANOTHER ball in play when she dropped and played the substituted ball. That became the ball in play.

3. Now that we’ve dealt with the original ball played from the tee, let’s look at where this “new ball” she put in play was played from, and what rule applies. When she substituted the ball, the location of the original was not known. Therefore the only rule that can apply is 27-1, which is the lost ball rule. Lost ball requires what? That we proceed under stroke and distance. She didn’t go back to the tee, so she played from a wrong place. In playing from a wrong place under 27-1 there is a judgment that the referee has to make—did she gain a significant advantage? In this case, the answer is “yes.” When you play from a wrong place AND gain a significant advantage in doing so, you are required to correct your error. Correcting the error requires her to go back and play from the proper place, before she tees off on the next hole. She didn’t do that. So she is disqualified for failure to correct her error in playing from a wrong place under 27-1, lost ball. This is why all of the stroke-penalty and multiple penalty possibilities did not apply in this case.

In her situation, she was DQ’d for the round, which is why the coach was upset. Not knowing the difference between wrong ball and substituted ball, he felt like she should have been hit with a 2-stroke penalty for wrong ball and allowed to post a score. Unfortunately, that’s not the case.

There are all kinds of “what-ifs” that you can come up with if you change one or two facts. But the lesson from this incident is this: the difference between a substituted ball and a wrong ball is that a substituted ball is a different ball that you get in your hand and put into play after you have put a ball in play from the tee to start a hole. A wrong ball is any ball other than yours that you strike during the play of a hole without putting it in your hand.

Thanks for playing “you make the call!”


[This message has been edited by USGA77 (edited 4/22/2014 8:58a).]
bagger05
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These are always fascinating. Thanks so much for posting, USGA.

Step one of every golfers pre-shot routine should be to identify their ball. It only takes a second and can save you all kinds of pain and suffering.
Chipotlemonger
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Good thread.
Burner Username
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So did she knowingly play the wrong ball, or did she originally think it was in fact the ball she played from the tee? In other words, did she just pull a ball out of the bag, drop it when no one was looking, and say "oh, there it is"?
bagger05
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Stinks that the first ball she found was in a burrowing animal hole. Had she not dropped it then her stroke at the first ball would've been a simple wrong ball penalty instead of illegally substituting and causing the whole lost ball thing.
bagger05
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Grey Patch, I think she honestly thought the first ball she found was the ball she hit from the tee.

IDENTIFY YOUR BALL BEFORE EVERY SINGLE SHOT
agsalaska
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quote:
Player T is disqualified. When Player T dropped and played a substituted ball near where she expected her original ball to be, the substituted ball became the ball in play and, since the location of the original ball was not known at the time, the applicable Rule was Rule 27-1 (Lost ball). The dropped ball was played a significant distance closer to the hole than the teeing ground and therefore Player T had committed a serious breach of Rule 27-1 and was required to correct her error before teeing off on the next hole. Since Player T did not correct her serious breach of Rule 27-1, the penalty is disqualification.




I will have to admit I am a little confused. I understand the concept of playing a substituted ball because she made a drop. But what was she supposed to do when she discovered the error in order to 'correct' it.

Because the other ball is considered a lost ball, was she supposed to go back and hit three from the tee, finish the hole, and add a two stroke penalty for subsituted ball?
USGA77
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Agsalaska, you are right on the procedure if she had discovered her error prior to completing play of the hole. Had she called for a referee upon discovering her original ball in the second burrowing animal hole, she would have returned to the tee, put another ball in play under stroke and distance, and added a two stroke penalty (technically for a breach of playing from a wrong place--the applicable rule would be 27-1.) There would be no additional penalty for substituting the ball when substitution was not permitted. That's due to an obscure decision that says when two rules are broken with a single act = one penalty. Substituting the ball and playing from a wrong place with it would constitute a single act.

So yes, if she had played another ball from the tee to correct her error, then she would lie 5 with the second ball played from the tee. 2 talent strokes with the two tee shots, plus 3 penalty strokes (1 under stroke and distance as prescribed for a lost ball, plus 2 for playing from a wrong place in breach of 27-1).

The stroke played from a wrong place and any subsequent strokes played with the incorrectly substituted ball after that would not count in her score for the hole since she was correcting an error for a serious breach of playing from a wrong place.

Whew! Good question!
bagger05
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alaska, assuming that she was completely aware of the rules, I think this is what she should have done:

Once she saw her original tee shot, she should have realized that her original ball was technically lost, meaning she had just played from the wrong place (since she dropped at that spot instead of re-teeing). She should have realized this was a serious breach so she should have gone back and re-teed with a second ball taking the stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball and holed out with both the dropped ball and the re-teed ball. The score for the ball she dropped would've been her score with a two stroke penalty for playing from the wrong place, and her score for the re-teed ball would've been her score considering she was hitting her third shot from the tee. Then she reports all the facts to the committee before signing a scorecard and the committee decides which score should count.

[This message has been edited by bagger05 (edited 4/22/2014 5:19p).]
bagger05
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Wait a second... I'm not getting how the tee shot is the fifth shot.
bagger05
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quote:
Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.

Based on this, it sounds like the stroke from the wrong place is determined to be moot if you go back and play from the correct spot with a second ball.
nickel
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Stroke and Distance for the lost ball would have her hitting three from the tee. Two stroke penalty for playing the second ball "with advantage" before finding the original ball she hit from the tee. 2 + 2 = 4 and we're hitting 5.
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