So you don't get a penalty until you take a stroke from the wrong place, right? So the stroke from the wrong place is wiped out but the penalty remains? How can one exist without the other?

I trust USGA on this, but I find it very confusing that the note can direct us to disregard the stroke from the wrong place and subsequent strokes and penalties, but not to disregard the penalty that occurred from taking that stroke.

quote:

---

Based on this, it sounds like the stroke from the wrong place is determined to be moot if you go back and play from the correct spot with a second ball.

---

Bagger think about it like this.


Right. So, if you completely ignore that, and the fact that at the end of the day her first ball was lost, she is in one out two hitting three off the tee. She then has the two stroke penalty for playing from the wrong place because the only place to play a wrong ball is from the original position. The substitute ball and actions after that are all moot.

USGA, verify the following logic.

I think when she realized she played the wrong ball the fact that she actually found the original ball is a moot point as well. When she realized she had played the wrong ball the other ball is a lost ball whether she found it or not. So she then has to play the consequences of a lost ball which in this case is re-tee. Everything shot she made with the wrong ball after the drop is meaningless because she already broke 27-1.



[This message has been edited by agsalaska (edited 4/22/2014 7:07p).]

Alaska,

You are still calling it a wrong ball instead of a substituted ball. Think of it this way: if you walk up and hit your buddies ball in the fairway you don't go back to the tee. You take your penalty for hitting the wrong ball and go hit your ball. However, if you are looking in the wrong place near a hazard and can't find your ball so you get a ball out of your bag and take a drop. You walk up 20 yards and find your original ball. Too bad, you have put a substitute ball in play.

In the disqualified player's situation, let's just say she put a substitute ball in play 20 yards AHEAD of her tee ball and she didn't go back and fix her error.

There was one in a golf magazine last month. Guy hits into a par 3 where it is slightly blind. His buddies in the group ahead sneak on and put his ball in the hole. Fast forward to the 19th hole. They wait for him to to start buying drinks before they all bust out laughing.

What is his score for the hole?

[This message has been edited by stick93 (edited 4/22/2014 7:57p).]

quote:

---

You are still calling it a wrong ball instead of a substituted ball. Think of it this way: if you walk up and hit your buddies ball in the fairway you don't go back to the tee. You take your penalty for hitting the wrong ball and go hit your ball. However, if you are looking in the wrong place near a hazard and can't find your ball so you get a ball out of your bag and take a drop. You walk up 20 yards and find your original ball. Too bad, you have put a substitute ball in play.

---

Thats right. I should use the word substituted ball. But I can substitute those terms and she still has to go back and re tee because her ball is considered lost.

No. See my fairway example. If she hits the wrong ball and then finds her original she gets a penalty and goes and hits her original with no stroke and distance.

But by dropping a ball, she has put a substitute in play, her original is lost, and she has to play the substitute from the tee. Doesn't matter if she found it in the desert or in her bag. Ball in hand eliminated her saying she inadvertently hit a wrong ball.

quote:

---

But by dropping a ball, she has put a substitute in play, her original is lost, and she has to play the substitute from the tee. Doesn't matter if she found it in the desert or in her bag. Ball in hand eliminated her saying she inadvertently hit a wrong ball.

---

I think we are almost saying the same thing. I understand it doesn't matter where she found it. But the penalty has nothing to do with playing a substitute ball. The penalty is for an illegal play of a lost ball. It has nothing to do with the substitute ball.

I am not sure that she has to continue to play the substitute ball even though she dropped because the penalty was for something else. Good question for USGA77

My point is the fact that she actually found her original ball after she discovered she played the wrong ball is meaningless clutter. That ball was lost the second she made the drop with the substitute ball.

quote:

---

There was one in a golf magazine last month. Guy hits into a par 3 where it is slightly blind. His buddies in the group ahead sneak on and put his ball in the hole. Fast forward to the 19th hole. They wait for him to to start buying drinks before they all bust out laughing.

What is his score for the hole?

---

Does it matter since he will never speak to his buddies again.

I hate to be argumentative but her penalty has everything to do with the substitute ball and where she played it from. Once she had a golf ball in her hand she a)declared her tee ball "lost" and b) declared she was putting a substitute ball in play and gave up any argument that she hit a wrong ball.

Once those two declarations are made, her only option is to take the substitute ball back to the tee and hit her third shot.

If she had just walked up to a ball in the desert and hit it, she incurs a two stroke penalty as soon as she realizes it wasn't her ball. But her original ball is not "lost". In fact, it is very much alive and she can even pick it up and take a free drop from the burrow.

And the hole in one stands as it was reasonable that it found it's way into the bottom of the cup. And, just as above, the score is cemented once he tees off on the next hole.

quote:

---

I hate to be argumentative but her penalty has everything to do with the substitute ball and where she played it from. Once she had a golf ball in her hand she a)declared her tee ball "lost" and b) declared she was putting a substitute ball in play and gave up any argument that she hit a wrong ball.

---

We are saying the same thing. When I made this comment:

quote:

---

Thats right. I should use the word substituted ball. But I can substitute those terms and she still has to go back and re tee because her ball is considered lost.

---

I acknoweledged I used the wrong term. I didn't mean the two words are interchangeable but that is certainly how it reads. The proper term in my earlier statement was substituted ball, not lost ball.
When I said this:

quote:

---

I think we are almost saying the same thing. I understand it doesn't matter where she found it. But the penalty has nothing to do with playing a substitute ball. The penalty is for an illegal play of a lost ball. It has nothing to do with the substitute ball.

---

My point was the penalty, the actual infraction, was not for using a substitute ball. Which is true.

I will wade in here and try to clarify the discussion related to the hypothetical what-if question posed earlier:

Hypothetical question was what-if, AFTER substituting a ball and playing it, she finds her original ball and then calls in a referee for help?

At that point, here's her situation: the moment that she played a stroke with the substituted ball, the original ball is LOST. Why? Because the only applicable rule that governs her actions is 27-1, lost ball. We have to find the applicable rule, and this is the one that governs (even though the player wasn't overtly proceeding under the lost ball rule). The correct procedure for lost ball, as we know, is stroke and distance. So she played from a wrong place, which is a 2 stroke penalty for a breach of 27-1. Playing from a wrong place is not a specific rule. It's a breach of an applicable rule. For example, you can play from a wrong place in proceeding under the unplayable ball rule, you can play from a wrong place in taking relief from a cart path, etc. In all of those cases, playing from a wrong place is a breach of the applicable rule, and the penalty statement for that rule is the one that applies.

In some cases you can play from a wrong place and not have to correct your error. In other cases you must correct your error--the governing principle is "did the player gain a significant advantage by playing from a wrong place?" In this case the answer was "yes."

As a side note, the easiest understood example of significant advantage/must correct error is this: ball goes into a water hazard marked yellow in front of the green. If the player drops on the green side and plays, that's a significant advantage and that error must be corrected before teeing off on the next hole to avoid a DQ. If he drops on the tee side in a wrong place because he got the spot wrong where the ball last crossed the margin, then that most likely is not a significant advantage, and correcting the error would not be required. He still gets the penalty for playing from a wrong place, he just doesn't have to go back and fix his error. Sorry for the digression.

So since she had to correct her error, the stroke played from a wrong place and subsequent strokes played with that ball do not count. Same situation when you hit a wrong ball--when a player plays a wrong ball, the strokes played with it don't count.

So, in this hypothetical instance, she would have had 1 talent stroke for her original tee shot. Then she would add a 2 penalty strokes for playing from a wrong place for a lost ball. The status of the original ball played from the tee changed to a lost ball by her act of substituting another ball and playing it.

Because she committed a serious breach of 27-1, she will be required to correct her error to avoid a DQ. At that point, she returns to the tee, adds 1 penalty stroke, and is playing her 5th shot from the tee.

I hope that helps a little.