Rules Question

1,105 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by Unemployed
booradley
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AG
so today, I hit a green and made a fairly large ball mark. but the ball spun back off the green.

the ball mark was between my ball and the hole.

but when I went to fix it, my buddy said I couldn't...because my ball was off the green...

never heard of this. and i'm an old guy...

is he correct?
HouAggie
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AG
He wrong.
bigfoot10s
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AG
I would be finding a new buddy to play with. Who takes it that seriously??
1208HawkTree
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AG
I actually had this happen in a tournament once. My ball ended up in the fringe, about a foot behind the mark, which was right in my line. It was a club championship, so no "rules officials" but one if the assistants happened to be nearby so we called him over. His suggestion was to play two balls and figure it out afterward. Made par with both balls so it didn't matter, but IIRC (it was 10+ years ago), your friend is technically correct. I am not certain, but I think that was the conclusion we came to afterward had it made a difference in my score.

At the same time, in a casual round, who gives a fook?
HouAggie
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AG
1208HT has me a little less certain now. But I'm pretty sure as long as the mark is on the green, you can repair it.
AggieT
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AG
Your friend is correct.
1208HawkTree
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I'm incorrect. You may fix a ball mark whether your ball lies on the green or not.

16-1c

"c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies."

[This message has been edited by 1208hawktree (edited 8/17/2014 8:44p).]
AggieT
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Interesting. My cousin is on the A&M golf team and told me that you could not repair a mark in this situation. I believe that it had recently come up in a tournament (last year) that they played in. Perhaps I misunderstood the situation.

Edit: now that I think about it, the situation was repairing a mark in the fringe that is in your line when putting from the fringe.

[This message has been edited by aggiet (edited 8/17/2014 9:02p).]
1208HawkTree
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AG
I don't think you can fix a ball mark (or any other "damage") that's not on the green if you're also not on the green.

Now that I think if it, I believe that was the issue I had. My ball mark was on the fringe and the ball stopped just behind the mark, preventing me from putting it.
Thisguy1
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Sergio had this happen a couple tournaments ago. His ball was on the fringe, and his ball mark was right in the way of his ball and the cup. He talked with his playing partner Bubba, I think, and they agreed on something(I don't know what). When he went to putt the ball, it was about 6" away from the mark and now on the green. I don't know if Sergio broke a rule and nobody noticed it, but he definitely marked his ball, picked it up, and when he placed it later it was on the green, and off the fringe. He never fixed his ball mark.

One thing that's different here, was his ball mark was on the fringe, so that may change something.

My girlfriend, who hates watching golf, was the one who noticed it.
cheeky
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Any ball mark on the green may be repaired before playing your next shot whether your ball is on the green or not. However, if both your ball and the ball mark are off the green, you must play the next shot before repairing the ball mark even if the ball mark is not in your direct line.
Westicles
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AG
But you cannot move sticks, leaves, debris on the green if you are not on the surface, correct?
CapCity12thMan
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1) you can repair a ballmark on the green, even if your ball is off the green, yes. You cannot repair/stamp down a divot/ballmark in your line of play or otherwise affecting your shot if it is off the green. Example - yo uare 3 feet off the green on the fringe and are going to putt it, but a big ball mark is in your way...you can't mash it down.

2) You can remove loose impediments if your ball is off the green. So, removing leaves, sticks, rocks, etc. is ok. Small technicality in this rule - sand is NOT a loose impediment. You can remove clumps of dirt, but you cannot brush sand away unless you are on the green. This is often an unknown to most.
USGA77
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There are two different discussions going on in this thread. I think HawkTree covered the OP's original question well with his citation of Rule 16-1c--if the ball mark is on the putting green, it may be repaired, regardless of where the ball is.

Only one minor comment on the other discussion regarding loose impediments--sand and loose soil are not loose impediments, except when sand and loose soil lie on the putting green. Sand and loose soil may not be brushed away off the putting green, as noted by CapCity. But it doesn't matter where the ball is. If the ball is an inch off the putting surface, and there's a mound of loose sand on the putting green, it may be swept away without penalty. See the definition of "Loose Impediments."

I agree that brushing away of loose sand in the fringe is one of the easiest rules to inadvertently break. I've done it before when putting from off the green.

[This message has been edited by USGA77 (edited 8/18/2014 9:45a).]

[This message has been edited by USGA77 (edited 8/18/2014 9:47a).]
HouAggie
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What if it's a dried "clump" of loose sand on the fringe and I can technically pick it up, as opposed to brush it? That would be ok?
dcrewint
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I think some of the confusion comes in from what happened last year or the year before to someone like Rory?

Rory(if it was him) was off downhill off the green(false front). He chipped the ball and he hadn't hit it hard enough and it came short of the false front again and rolled back down near the original spot.

I believe as the ball was rolling back down Rory swiped at a leaf or divot and Rory had been assessed a penalty since he moved loose pediment in the middle of a ball rolling towards it?
USGA77
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Unfortunately, the definition of "Loose Impediments" does not include a definition of "loose" in reference to "soil." And there is no discernment in the definition between dry sand clumped together and sand that is otherwise composed.

As a practical matter, "loose" is interpreted to mean, "not embedded in the ground."

So I am afraid that a solid mound of dirt or sand off the putting green may not be removed, even if it can be done so by lifting rather than brushing.


aggiebrother33
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you can fix it on the green, but you cannot fix it if the mark is in the fringe in front of your ball.
CapCity12thMan
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dcrew I believe is referring to:

http://www.usga.org/ourexpertsexplain.aspx?id=21474846167
diehard03
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it seems like this article says its ok to brush sand off a putting green...
Chipotlemonger
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This rules thread went up Defcon levels.
Westicles
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Yeah I'm likely going to quit golf because of this thread.
Unemployed
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Let's see if I can get this straight.

Doesn't matter where your ball is at, you can fix pitch marks or remove anything that are on the green.

If your ball is not on the green, you cannot fix pitch marks or brush off sand/dirt that are not on the green even if they're directly in your line.
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