*** DUNE: PART TWO *** (Spoilers) - Page 11

djmeen95

10:42a, 3/16/24

Just rewatched it for the second time (both IMAX) and man… it's so damn enjoyable - visually stunning throughout.

That said - second viewing gave me more time to think through scenes. I really struggled first go round with the change to Chani and how Zendaya played the role. It was just too one dimensional for me but I will admit I also think she plays most roles the same way. She's this generation's Kristen Stewart. Lol. And yeah. I know. I'm probably an idiot in not appreciating both of their abilities. But …. shrug.

Second viewing - same feelings but now with a bit of resentment at her character for being so naive as to think there's some way the Fremen can take back Arrakis by themselves for themselves. There is no way in hell that planet is left alone given the importance of spice to interstellar travel. The only way to let Dune change and allow the Fremen to "govern" it is under protection of a benevolent emperor. Hence the need for Paul to do this. It's the ONLY way. I also really was able to enjoy more how Bardem played Stilgar's role - although I'll be damned if I couldn't stop seeing memes in my mind as he reacted to Paul's evolution. And oh man - that speech after Paul drinks the water of life hit just as hard the second time as the first. It's was "chef's kiss"

So with that said - the treatment of Chani's character does open up some nice territory to explore in part 3/Messiah. Maybe she begins to realize that dude did exactly what he had to do to let Dune be reborn into a paradise. But I have a sinking sensation that Hollywood won't be happy unless Chani somehow becomes a major character equal to Paul as opposed to just letting us see her grow as a person who eventually will support Paul.

But again, remember my disclaimer, I'm an idiot. lol.

Brian Earl Spilner

12:06p, 3/16/24

In reply to Whos Juan

Whos Juan said:
Welp, looks like I know what I'm doing September 25th

https://www.hanszimmerlive.com/

Second US date is near me.

The Dog Lord

2:34p, 3/16/24

In reply to TCTTS

TCTTS said:
bangobango said:
YouBet said:
Absolute spectacle. I'm going to take my own narrow path here...

There was no northern (non-fundamentalist) vs southern (fundamentalist) Fremen in the book. Making Chani a northern Fremen combined with being relegated to concubine, and thus having her leave at the end is a large divergence from the book.

And I think the reason DV did that is because Dune Messiah is a largely boring book and will not translate to film well at all (which I've been annoyingly saying for some time). It has no action, it's short, and was only ever meant almost as an epilogue to Dune and a brief setup for Children of Dune.

So, I think DV recognizes this and made this change on purpose so that the next part would be watchable. And I think it was probably the right move from a movie going experience.

I do think part one was better as a film due to pacing like others have said but this movie was certainly a great watch.

People are actually saying part one was better? Wow. That is certainly a take.

I've absolutely come around on Part Two's greatness in general, and I understand/agree with exactly why Villeneuve made the decisions he did. That said, I still hold that Part One is not only better-paced, but resonates with me more overall.

Are Part One's highs as high as Part Two? Absolutely not. Score-wise, does anything in Part One come close to Zimmer's theme for Paul and Chani in Part Two? No way. Is Part One's ending as satisfying or as emotional as Part Two's? Not a chance. Yet, there's something about Part One that still feels more consistent to me, while also boasting slightly more iconic cinematography, IMO, and basically featuring just a few more moments that I love.

All that said, at this point we're splitting hairs because if I give Part One a 99 out of 100, I'm giving Part Two, like, a 95 out of 100. They're both all-time incredible to be.

Just saw part 2, and this sums up my thoughts perfectly. Felt part 1 was just a tad better in terms of being a complete movie due to pacing, but part 2 had better moments. The score was also amazing. Might essentially make them equal overall.

YouBet

2:41p, 3/16/24

We are about to go see Dune 2. Will be second time for me and first for wife. After seeing Part 1, she wanted to read the book and she finished it this morning and is chomping at the bit to see part 2 now.

It will be in a local podunk theater but that's fine. I saw it in IMAX the first time.

evan_aggie

10:57p, 3/16/24

Saw this tonight. I really struggled with the casting of Christopher Walken. I know the emperor was to appear average or weak, but it was a strange fit.

YouBet

9:00a, 3/17/24

A few observations upon second viewing:

1. Early on Paul tells his mother that they need to convince the Fremen he is the messiah. She makes a counter comment suggesting his father would not do that. Then he spends the rest of the movie (until he drinks Water of Life) pissed at his mother for doing exactly this. That seems like a big plot hole or at least poor transition in the story. Pretty glaring. I'm wondering if something was cut that connected that better.

2. Jessica evolving into almost an evil character is some level of divergence from the book as well. His recurring vision has her leading Paul down the path of Holy War / genocide. In the book, she was scared ****less of him and I do not recall her so deliberately pushing for Holy War.

2. Lady Fenrig getting pregnant was not in the book (from what I recall) so that sets up as a new plot line with Feyds daughter looking for revenge against her father's killer in later film(s). Total spitballing on my part.

All in all the second part diverges from the book a good bit especially compared to the first movie. Anyway, my wife absolutley loved it. She's now going to read Messiah. Damn curious how she will rate that book.

Proposition Joe

9:22a, 3/17/24

In reply to YouBet

RE: #1 - I don't recall completely but when was his first genocide vision? I thought he was all for appearing as the messiah in order to lead, but then after multiple visions of genocide wanted to stay clear of that path?

YouBet

9:50a, 3/17/24

In reply to Proposition Joe

Proposition Joe said:
RE: #1 - I don't recall completely but when was his first genocide vision? I thought he was all for appearing as the messiah in order to lead, but then after multiple visions of genocide wanted to stay clear of that path?

I don't quite recall but maybe we are to just have surmised what you said as the reason for his 180. It was just abrupt. There was no conversation about changing his mind. Not a huge deal. Just seems like maybe a transition scene would have cleaned that up.

Brian Earl Spilner

11:05a, 3/17/24

LB12Diamond

11:10a, 3/17/24

I just thought he was worried about his visions showing many people being killed if he went south.

YouBet

11:16a, 3/17/24

In reply to LB12Diamond

LB12Diamond said:
I just thought he was worried about his visions showing many people being killed if he went south.

He knew that if he went south it would trigger a galactic Holy War resulting in the death of millions. I was trying to connect his change of mind in the movie going from wanting to convince the Fremen he was the Messiah to not even a few minutes later decrying that he was the Messiah.

I guess we are to assume his vision here was the catalyst for his change of mind.

Madmarttigan

11:29a, 3/17/24

I mean I don't feel like it was a sudden flip, he refused to go south over and over but then was forced to flee when he was defeated.

I think he was ok pretending to be the messiah for revenge at the beginning until he started having those visions of death following his mother.

Once he realized he had no choice he embraced it completely to defeat his enemies but he still tried to prevent the holy war by marrying the princess. I don't think the holy war was ever something he wanted, but more forced into.

YouBet

11:38a, 3/17/24

In reply to Madmarttigan

Madmarttigan said:
I mean I don't feel like it was a sudden flip, he refused to go south over and over but then was forced to flee when he was defeated.

I think he was ok pretending to be the messiah for revenge at the beginning until he started having those visions of death following his mother.

Once he realized he had no choice he embraced it completely to defeat his enemies but he still tried to prevent the holy war by marrying the princess. I don't think the holy war was ever something he wanted, but more forced into.

I've made this bigger than it is. I was merely just referring to the one statement at the beginning he made about pretending to be the messiah and then almost immediately he was vehemently opposed to being called the messiah.

His change of heart was due to his visions. It just wasn't communicated verbally in the movie. He reluctantly gave in to going south after his vision with Jamis.

DallasTeleAg

1:11p, 3/17/24

I don't see that as any kind of logical jump at all. The visions he saw after drinking the worm piss obviously caused him to change his trajectory. He now saw there was only one narrow path forward, and it meant he had to embrace the Messiah moniker. That was very clearly stated in the movie. It's literally the exact same scene we got in Infinity War, when Dr. Strange saw only one path where he had to give up the Time stone. It would be like saying it doesn't make since for Dr. Strange to give up the Time Stone because one of the main purposes of his entire order was the protection of the Time Stone, and he spent all movie saying he would sacrifice everyone else in protection of the Time Stone.

I really don't see the disconnect.

The ridiculous reason for Dr. Yueh betraying the Atreides, and having them caught at night with their pants down, is by far the biggest issue with the story, imo. Granted, I don't put that on Villeneuve. He is simply adapting Herbert's story, which I found to be uninspired and a simple plot convenience (specifically referring to the betrayal and fall of Atreides).

Chipotlemonger

3:24p, 3/17/24

In reply to DallasTeleAg

The Dr. Yeuh subplot had a bit more gusto in the book if I recall correctly. Think the reader knows ahead of time about Yeuh's intentions, whereas in the movie it does immediately to the betrayal for him.

I rewatched part 1 a few weeks ago. He is the one who puts the pack in the thopter for Jessica and Paul right? That's something I recall but if it happened in the movie it was quick and/or only talked about and not shown.

Cromagnum

3:33p, 3/17/24

Just started reading Messiah and enjoying it so far. I could see how they could undo how they have written themselves into a corner with Chani leaving pretty easily.

Just have her gone for a period of time to go to the edge of the desert and contemplate before coming back to Paul. It doesn't have to be for the 12 years he's been emperor. He still doesn't want anything to do with Irulan, so they could showcase his loyalty to Chani despite her leaving and build from there.

Cromagnum

3:38p, 3/17/24

In reply to Chipotlemonger

It definitely happened in the movie. There was a note with a diamond on it in the pack.

Chipotlemonger

3:51p, 3/17/24

In reply to Cromagnum

Cromagnum said:
It definitely happened in the movie. There was a note with a diamond on it in the pack.

Do we see Yeuh put it there though or get it together? For some reason I remember more coverage on this in the book and that in the movie whatever was shown was super quick.

Cinco Ranch Aggie

3:56p, 3/17/24

In reply to Chipotlemonger

Chipotlemonger said:
Cromagnum said:
It definitely happened in the movie. There was a note with a diamond on it in the pack.

Do we see Yeuh put it there though or get it together? For some reason I remember more coverage on this in the book and that in the movie whatever was shown was super quick.

It was a quick shot when they were getting out of the downed ornithopter. I think Jessica had a line of dialogue that confirmed it as being from Yueh.

#FJB

lurker76

4:17p, 3/17/24

In reply to Cinco Ranch Aggie

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:
Chipotlemonger said:
Cromagnum said:
It definitely happened in the movie. There was a note with a diamond on it in the pack.

Do we see Yeuh put it there though or get it together? For some reason I remember more coverage on this in the book and that in the movie whatever was shown was super quick.
It was a quick shot when they were getting out of the downed ornithopter. I think Jessica had a line of dialogue that confirmed it as being from Yueh.

There was a diamond scratched into the support on the seat. It matches the diamond tattoo on Yeuh, the symbol of a Suk doctor.

TCTTS

4:23p, 3/17/24

In reply to YouBet

YouBet said:
Madmarttigan said:
I mean I don't feel like it was a sudden flip, he refused to go south over and over but then was forced to flee when he was defeated.

I think he was ok pretending to be the messiah for revenge at the beginning until he started having those visions of death following his mother.

Once he realized he had no choice he embraced it completely to defeat his enemies but he still tried to prevent the holy war by marrying the princess. I don't think the holy war was ever something he wanted, but more forced into.

I've made this bigger than it is. I was merely just referring to the one statement at the beginning he made about pretending to be the messiah and then almost immediately he was vehemently opposed to being called the messiah.

His change of heart was due to his visions. It just wasn't communicated verbally in the movie. He reluctantly gave in to going south after his vision with Jamis.

I'm confused because I don't remember Paul ever wanting to pretend to be the messiah toward the beginning of the movie. Rather, the way I remember it, Paul wanted revenge/to destroy the Harkonnens simply as a fellow Freman. I thought all he wanted was to become one of them, to be accepted by them, and help them as a brother, not as a messiah. What am I missing?

But then yeah, either way, people seem to forget that his eventual change of mind was two-fold. It was his visions PLUS the Siitch being destroyed by Feyd-Rautha. Paul was essentially forced south both mentally AND physically.

DallasTeleAg

4:40p, 3/17/24

In reply to Chipotlemonger

Chipotlemonger said:
The Dr. Yeuh subplot had a bit more gusto in the book if I recall correctly. Think the reader knows ahead of time about Yeuh's intentions, whereas in the movie it does immediately to the betrayal for him.

I rewatched part 1 a few weeks ago. He is the one who puts the pack in the thopter for Jessica and Paul right? That's something I recall but if it happened in the movie it was quick and/or only talked about and not shown.

I read the part of the book. There was this whole build-up about how Dr. Yueh's class of people (can't remember what they're called) are basically not able to betray the family they work for. The Baron has this whole build-up about how he has discovered a way to get around this compulsion, making you think he's come up with some elaborate and ingenious way to circumvent this very powerful connection. Then you find out he just kidnapped Yueh's wife and is torturing her. Seriously? Any two-bit thug would have thought of that.

I'm supposed to believe this extremely powerful family, who rules entire planets, doesn't protect the families of their closest servants? I'm to believe that no back alley thug has ever kidnapped one's family member in the last several thousand years to do this exact same thing?

Again, major plot convenience. And I only hold the story to that high level of scrutiny because, up to that point, it the politics and subterfuge seemed very intelligent and in depth.

I just really had a problem with that, which soured me on the first half of the book.

M.C. Swag

5:11p, 3/17/24

In reply to DallasTeleAg

When you put it like that…I see your point. Gotta forgive the plot mechanics sometimes but you have a good point.

YouBet

7:25p, 3/17/24

In reply to TCTTS

TCTTS said:
YouBet said:
Madmarttigan said:
I mean I don't feel like it was a sudden flip, he refused to go south over and over but then was forced to flee when he was defeated.

I think he was ok pretending to be the messiah for revenge at the beginning until he started having those visions of death following his mother.

Once he realized he had no choice he embraced it completely to defeat his enemies but he still tried to prevent the holy war by marrying the princess. I don't think the holy war was ever something he wanted, but more forced into.

I've made this bigger than it is. I was merely just referring to the one statement at the beginning he made about pretending to be the messiah and then almost immediately he was vehemently opposed to being called the messiah.

His change of heart was due to his visions. It just wasn't communicated verbally in the movie. He reluctantly gave in to going south after his vision with Jamis.

I'm confused because I don't remember Paul ever wanting to pretend to be the messiah toward the beginning of the movie. Rather, the way I remember it, Paul wanted revenge/to destroy the Harkonnens simply as a fellow Freman. I thought all he wanted was to become one of them, to be accepted by them, and help them as a brother, not as a messiah. What am I missing?

But then yeah, either way, people seem to forget that his eventual change of mind was two-fold. It was his visions PLUS the Siitch being destroyed by Feyd-Rautha. Paul was essentially forced south both mentally AND physically.

He and Jessica had a brief conversation after joining the fremen where he tells her they need to convince the fremen he's the messiah so he can exact that revenge. That's when Jessica says your father didn't believe in revenge and he responds with "I dp".

Charlie Conway

8:50p, 3/17/24

In reply to YouBet

YouBet said:

He and Jessica had a brief conversation after joining the fremen where he tells her they need to convince the fremen he's the messiah so he can exact that revenge. That's when Jessica says your father didn't believe in revenge and he responds with "I dp".

Chipotlemonger

11:17p, 3/17/24

I, for one, love the nerding out convo we've got to have here lately RE: Dune subplots.

BCG Disciple

1:15a, 3/18/24

Just got to see it. Great film. I need to read the books.

Was Chani questioning Paul's status as the savior? I don't understand how considering desert spring tears literally brought him back to life. Did someone mention desert spring tears, or did she just use her tear? Regardless, this should have been a clear sign that he wS the savior. It should have probably ended her doubt. Maybe it did, and what we later saw was just disappointment and jealousy.

TCTTS

1:19a, 3/18/24

In reply to BCG Disciple

I asked basically this same question, in a different way, and we had a whole discussion about it a few pages back, with some good answers. Maybe like a week and a half ago, around Wednesday the 6th, if you want to go digging...

TCTTS

1:19a, 3/18/24

In reply to YouBet

Guess I have to go back and watch it for a third time now...

BCG Disciple

1:28a, 3/18/24

In reply to YouBet

You implied he meant to pretend to be the messiah to convince them. He just said convince them. I took it as purposefully chosen words to leave it open for interpretation, on point with how religion is depicted in the films. Is it all a long manipulative play by the bene gesseritts and those in power or is it real??

BCG Disciple

1:48a, 3/18/24

In reply to TCTTS

TCTTS said:
I asked basically this same question, in a different way, and we had a whole discussion about it a few pages back, with some good answers. Maybe like a week and a half ago, around Wednesday the 6th, if you want to go digging...

Thanks. Went back and read it. I like the explanation. Has to balance actual religion and be explained scientifically, so I like the microdosing enabling thought. Also something chemically within a year could help a man convert the poison? Just a thought - electrolytes like sodium and chloride, or even the lubricating proteins? A combo of the two? Or the chemical reacted with the poison before going into Paul, and could have been the trigger? Basically still holding the position that any tear could have aided the recovery.

Still think with all the evidence building that Chani at some point has to believe? Someone called for Desert Spring tears, and she proceeded to mix it with more worm poison. Her name literally translates as dessert spring. I get an outsider without knowing her name or its translation not believing, but there is zero chance that she would still not believe he was the messiah at that point in time. You'd have to be the most pessimistic non believer ever created.

bangobango

6:14a, 3/18/24

In reply to BCG Disciple

BCG Disciple said:
Just got to see it. Great film. I need to read the books.

Was Chani questioning Paul's status as the savior? I don't understand how considering desert spring tears literally brought him back to life. Did someone mention desert spring tears, or did she just use her tear? Regardless, this should have been a clear sign that he wS the savior. It should have probably ended her doubt. Maybe it did, and what we later saw was just disappointment and jealousy.

Book Chani is not a skeptic.

Brian Earl Spilner

11:42a, 3/18/24

cr0wbar

2:10p, 3/18/24

Saw D2 over the weekend - Non book reader here.

Questions:

Gurney was spice harvesting for....the Harkonnens? Or someone else? I thought he died in the D1 battle.
Jessica (Ferguson) was a Harkonnen - how did she end of with Leto Artriedies? Felt like I briefly glossed over those two bits of information

Awesome movie. I'm usually not a double theater watcher, but trying to drag my GF to see this in IMAX this weekend

Decay

2:20p, 3/18/24

In reply to cr0wbar

Gurney was basically freelancing. Maybe smuggling spice or just selling it back to the Harkonnen and skimming off the top.

They don't really get into how she ended up with the Duke. She was Bene-Gesserit, assigned to him and was supposed to control him and produce a daughter. The book goes into it more I think. But basically she would be able to bridge the gap between both houses to advance plans for the B-G.