In reply to bmks270

bmks270 said:

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jrdaustin said:

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Wowza. I just looked at how they marry heat pump technology with water heaters and it will be a crapshow.

Apparently the idea is to stick a compressor and evaporator coil on top of the water heater, with a fan to move airflow. Then, you reject the heat into a refrigerant-to-water condenser in the tank.

Yes, it will be more efficient than an electric resistance element in the tank, but it will also bring a lot of problems.

As mentioned above, your max water temp will be a direct result of the ambient air temp at the time of heating.

So if your water heater is located in a closet in the house, you're basically screwed, because your normal air conditioning system will have to be set high enough so the tank heat pump will operate. It will be cool around the water heater, but not so much in other areas of the house.

Put it in the attic or garage you say? That's great in the summer when temps are high. But in the fall and winter when your temps are 70 and below, your water heater will not heat water above 90 degrees. With our body temp being 98, that's not hot.

I'm guessing they'll have an "emergency heat" backup that will be resistance, but it will be used very often, mostly negating the benefits of a heat pump.

The reason a heat pump works for air conditioning is simple. If you're wanting to cool inside, it's hot outside. When you want to heat inside, it's cold outside. There's a reversing valve that can reverse the system. However, when we want hot water, it may be hot OR cold outside.

In summary, this is a monumentally STUPID idea that is being pushed on a single metric, that resistance heat is less efficient than a refrigeration cycle. That's true, but not relevant in the water heating world.

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You can't put them in a closet.

Also, pics I saw had them outside, like your AC units. I think the idea is they use the ambient air to heat the water.

Yeah it's doable but expensive and extra complexity compared to gas or electric coil.

It's also kind of dumb because you can't heat the water hotter than ambient air even with 100% heat transfer efficiency, so you need augmented heat anyway, so you still need the original coil or gas system.

You spend less on electricity using heat from ambient, but have to spend $1500-2000 on the higher complexity system, it makes it pointless.

Just make more cheap grid energy (nuclear), that is overall more economically efficient for society.

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Dang, if they're outside, then the only place they'll even have a prayer of working is in California or Hawaii. Anyplace that has a winter and you're trying to get heat out of a 30 degree day, you'll freeze up the system.

Literally.

In reply to Kansas Kid

Kansas Kid said:

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I installed an inground pump and dump geothermal unit for my HVAC and for an extra $400, added a waste heat recovery system to my traditional water heater. During the cooling system, it is essentially free to heat the water to whatever temp you can stand. During the winter, it was a little more efficient than when I burned gas.

The geothermal unit for my HVAC cost an extra $6000 to install but cut my bills for gas and electric by about 40%. I think it was a 2.5 year payback and I got rid of the annoying condensing fans outside.

Needless to say, I did it for green reasons. The Benjamin's were great to save.

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Geothermal works because you're rejecting to, or pulling heat from, a year-round stable ground temp. That takes ambient temperature out of the equasion. 2.5 year payback is awesome! Congrats. You did very well.

In reply to cecil77

cecil77 said:

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Yeah, rethinking it, a heat pump let's us use our pool year round. I have propane for occasional heavy lifting, but resistance heating wouldn't work at all. Well engineered and appropriately sized, I could see it working, given a decent place to put it.

What's missing in some of the above discussion is the heat accumulation, it's not running through the heat pump once, rather continually until the desired temperature is reached.

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Good point, and yes, I had neglected to consider the multiple circulations.

I'm still of the opinion, however, that a gas fired water heater is the net most efficient and fastest recovery option available. I'm on propane, and it's nice that I can still have a hot shower as well as hot water for dishes during a power outage.

It would have really sucked during Snowmageddon to take cold showers.

In reply to jrdaustin

jrdaustin said:

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bmks270 said:

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jrdaustin said:

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Wowza. I just looked at how they marry heat pump technology with water heaters and it will be a crapshow.

Apparently the idea is to stick a compressor and evaporator coil on top of the water heater, with a fan to move airflow. Then, you reject the heat into a refrigerant-to-water condenser in the tank.

Yes, it will be more efficient than an electric resistance element in the tank, but it will also bring a lot of problems.

As mentioned above, your max water temp will be a direct result of the ambient air temp at the time of heating.

So if your water heater is located in a closet in the house, you're basically screwed, because your normal air conditioning system will have to be set high enough so the tank heat pump will operate. It will be cool around the water heater, but not so much in other areas of the house.

Put it in the attic or garage you say? That's great in the summer when temps are high. But in the fall and winter when your temps are 70 and below, your water heater will not heat water above 90 degrees. With our body temp being 98, that's not hot.

I'm guessing they'll have an "emergency heat" backup that will be resistance, but it will be used very often, mostly negating the benefits of a heat pump.

The reason a heat pump works for air conditioning is simple. If you're wanting to cool inside, it's hot outside. When you want to heat inside, it's cold outside. There's a reversing valve that can reverse the system. However, when we want hot water, it may be hot OR cold outside.

In summary, this is a monumentally STUPID idea that is being pushed on a single metric, that resistance heat is less efficient than a refrigeration cycle. That's true, but not relevant in the water heating world.

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You can't put them in a closet.

Also, pics I saw had them outside, like your AC units. I think the idea is they use the ambient air to heat the water.

Yeah it's doable but expensive and extra complexity compared to gas or electric coil.

It's also kind of dumb because you can't heat the water hotter than ambient air even with 100% heat transfer efficiency, so you need augmented heat anyway, so you still need the original coil or gas system.

You spend less on electricity using heat from ambient, but have to spend $1500-2000 on the higher complexity system, it makes it pointless.

Just make more cheap grid energy (nuclear), that is overall more economically efficient for society.

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Dang, if they're outside, then the only place they'll even have a prayer of working is in California or Hawaii. Anyplace that has a winter and you're trying to get heat out of a 30 degree day, you'll freeze up the system.

Literally.

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This is why they still have electric coil or gas still and why they cost 3x as much, you need a second way to still heat the water, because the heat pump won't work well when ambient is too cold.

Let's be clear, I oppose this regulation.

I have a heat pump hot water heater. FOR us, it's been a good trade off for the gas water heater. It puts out frigid air as a byproduct, and there has been a noticeable difference in our electricity bill in the summer, and the water is scalding hot.

That said, the only reason the math worked out was we got $3k in subsidies, which covered the water heater and installation. Otherwise it would have been a little over $1k for a new gas water heater.

So it's great for upper middle class folks like me, buts going to be awful for anyone that has to pay full price for it.

Does not matter, Electric water heaters will never be more efficient then gas heaters. That is just basic thermodynamics.

In reply to doubledog

doubledog said:

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Does not matter, Electric water heaters will never be more efficient then gas heaters. That is just basic thermodynamics.

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If nothing else, the fact that I started the thread to figure out if I was missing something with how this actually reduces strain on the electric grid has been informative.

Thanks to all for weighing in on a subject of which I am confused and uninformed. But it sounded very sus to me as that press release stated. So....I asked.

Thanks again.

If you go solar, you can reduce your arguments with your spouse.

In the old days around here, people would have a barrel they set in the sun to heat water for bathing (usually showers). It was typically the wife's job to fill it with water in the morning so that the husband would be able to wash when he got home from the field.

One local woman used that to reduce arguments with her husband. If they were arguing, she wouldn't fill it with water until just before her husband was due home from the field so that he would have to bathe in cold water.

I read something a few years ago about new houses in Hawaii being required to use solar for heating water. Somehow, I doubt that means that the women in Hawaii are pouring cold water into a barrel to heat in the sun.

In reply to aggiehawg

aggiehawg said:

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doubledog said:

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Does not matter, Electric water heaters will never be more efficient then gas heaters. That is just basic thermodynamics.

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If nothing else, the fact that I started the thread to figure out if I was missing something with how this actually reduces strain on the electric grid has been informative.

Thanks to all for weighing in on a subject of which I am confused and uninformed. But it sounded very sus to me as that press release stated. So....I asked.

Thanks again.

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They reduce strain on the grid because they do not use electricity to heat the water, which is ineffecient. High efficiency electric water heaters are on the order of 0.9.

Heat pumps, on the other hand, just use electricity to move heat around, like how your fridge works. They are 4-5x more efficient, which at first doesn't seem possible. This isn't breaking any natural laws; it's just the magic of refrigeration.

I think heat pump water heaters can make a lot of sense in some markets -- namely if your electricity is very expensive or if you don't have access to natural gas/propane. They are more costly up front but the payback can be under 5 years. Also keep in mind that some people that don't have gas pay 2-3x what we pay for electricity here in Texas...

As far as external temperature, water heaters are typically quite a bit more protected than say an AC heat pump. It's a concern but not nearly as much as AC with the external unit. Here in the Texas, the nice byproduct of a heat pump water heater is that you get "free" AC. The unit cannot be in a small closet like a traditional unit, but if have it in your attic or garage you'll get the benefit of cooling.

Here in Florida, water heaters in the garage are fairly common. A heat pump water heater actually starts to make a little sense if you have the water heater in the garage in a hot climate and like to work in the garage. The heat pump water heaters actually cool the garage down to around 80F in the summertime, so it's kind of like cheap air conditioning for the garage

First it was low-flow toilets! Now, this! Gov't screws everything up. All in the name of saving the planet.

In reply to Artorias

Artorias said:

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Sims said:

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I guess unless you live somewhere that is cold and the heat pump doesn't keep up.

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This. Here in TN heat pumps are very common, but they fail miserably in the winter months when it is below freezing frequently. Our electric bills in Jan/Feb are crazy high since it is too cold for the heat pump to work, and the system reverts to straight electric coil heat. It is mild enough in the summers up here where the heat pump works out pretty well the rest of the year, but it sucks in the winter.

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Electric heat coil, you say?

That's green energy baby! Net zero!

/Sarcasm

In reply to Sims

Sims said:

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I guess unless you live somewhere that is cold and the heat pump doesn't keep up.

Also, if they're locating indoors, you are just removing heat content from your air which means the furnace has to do more work. If they're outdoors, see first point.

Seems like there will be ideal applications and less than ideal applications.

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Years ago, I worked for an HVAC manufacturer. Even at 40 below, the heat pump was still pulling heat from the ambient air. They've likely improved in the quarter century since I last visited the lab.

That said, at 40 below, the heat output from the heat pump will be below skin temperature, making it feel cold, even though it's still heating the space. That's why most have supplemental electric heat along with the heat pump.

The heat pump gives a mechanical advantage when heating, therefore, you can get more heat out than if you use straight electric heat.

In reply to EMY92 Pretty significant innovation here in the last decade or so. Most HVAC heat pump manufacturers have cold-weather rated units now, that are still above 100% efficiency into the -10 - to -20 F range (by contrast they are 4-500% efficient in the 50+ F range). They also have smarts to reverse the cycle in extreme cold to prevent the outside lines from freezing.

There are even new heat pump clothes driers than can run off 120V. Two really cool benefits -- they don't require a hole in your wall and they cool the room they are in when running.

Not a green dude in the slightest; but heat pumps are really cool technology independent of the politics...

If you installed a water heater downstream of a heat pump, then would it be called a hot water heater?

In reply to Kansas Kid

Kansas Kid said:

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I installed an inground pump and dump geothermal unit for my HVAC and for an extra $400, added a waste heat recovery system to my traditional water heater. During the cooling system, it is essentially free to heat the water to whatever temp you can stand. During the winter, it was a little more efficient than when I burned gas.

The geothermal unit for my HVAC cost an extra $6000 to install but cut my bills for gas and electric by about 40%. I think it was a 2.5 year payback and I got rid of the annoying condensing fans outside.

Needless to say, I did it for green reasons. The Benjamin's were great to save.

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Thanks for posting this. I read it just as I was about to post that the only way I could see this regulation having a chance to achieve its goals is if the heat pump was integrated with HVAC exhaust to actually utilize waste heat.

Good to see that theory is correct, although it adds even more to the overall upfront system cost, and I doubt many people who are forced to install the heat pump water heaters will actually take that extra step to actually make it a halfway viable alternative to resistance heaters.

Regardless, it's just another example of flawed Democrat logic where the solution is actually worse than the perceived problem. Idiots.

In reply to StrickAggie06

StrickAggie06 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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I installed an inground pump and dump geothermal unit for my HVAC and for an extra $400, added a waste heat recovery system to my traditional water heater. During the cooling system, it is essentially free to heat the water to whatever temp you can stand. During the winter, it was a little more efficient than when I burned gas.

The geothermal unit for my HVAC cost an extra $6000 to install but cut my bills for gas and electric by about 40%. I think it was a 2.5 year payback and I got rid of the annoying condensing fans outside.

Needless to say, I did it for green reasons. The Benjamin's were great to save.

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Thanks for posting this. I read it just as I was about to post that the only way I could see this regulation having a chance to achieve its goals is if the heat pump was integrated with HVAC exhaust to actually utilize waste heat.

Good to see that theory is correct, although it adds even more to the overall upfront system cost, and I doubt many people who are forced to install the heat pump water heaters will actually take that extra step to actually make it a halfway viable alternative to resistance heaters.

Regardless, it's just another example of flawed Democrat logic where the solution is actually worse than the perceived problem. Idiots.

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If I ever build a new house and I have accessible well water, I will always go with the pump and dump systems. They are not only lower energy costs but also lower maintenance and as I said before, not hearing the condensing fans makes the outside area a lot more relaxing and enjoyable (also eliminates risk of damage from vandals and storms).

As a retrofit, the added costs can make it prohibitive depending on what needs to be done with the house to install the system. For me, it was relatively cheap and I had to install new units anyway due to them being at end of life.

In reply to Kansas Kid Hey we have the cheapest propane and tank rentals in Bryan/ cstat $2.90 a gallon. $85 a year on tank rental plus free tank monitoring! STAR TEX PROPANE. 254-752-6571 or my cell 254-730-1520

If this was such a great idea the marketplace would be demanding them.

In reply to jt2hunt

jt2hunt said:

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If this was such a great idea the marketplace would be demanding them.

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First, I strongly oppose the mandate and the market should decide. They also don't make sense for every situation.

That said, I think things like this are hard to sell even if they make economic sense for many people because 1) people don't have the money for extra upfront cost (ie the natural instinct to buy the cheapest option), 2) they have poor economic skills (a massive problem in today's society, 3) people go with what they know and 4) they sound like devises that are too good to be true. There are a few other reasons but I think these are the big ones that come to top of mind.

In reply to Kansas Kid How do these make economic sense?

In reply to jt2hunt Have you even looked at the smart or hybrid electric water heaters currently in big box stores? They are heat pumps. They make sense because the ROI is under 5 years, much faster than the expected lifetime of the device.

The mandate is stupid. Most all government mandates are.

That is completely orthogonal to whether the technology is good. Heat pumps are almost a cheat code. We should be heat pumping many more things.

In reply to RED AG 98 With or without the tax credits?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-65-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Smart-Tank-Electric-Heat-Pump-Water-Heater-XE65T10H45U0/312741511?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=vantage&utm_campaign=23998&utm_content=25649&mtc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D26P-026_010_WATER_HEATER-NA-RHEEM-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862549001-23998-NBR-2529-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_Rheem_D26_RM%2B_AON&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D26P-026_010_WATER_HEATER-NA-RHEEM-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862549001-23998-NBR-2529-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_Rheem_D26_RM%2B_AON-71700000117584304--&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw88yxBhBWEiwA7cm6pXBEs7VBArGFdmdB0kdM8QycGp82GyWS7P5KmzGzwNzAb3TwhCQcNhoCmLAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

7 years to payback the cost of unit only, not labor. That would be another 3 years. 10 years to payback l&m costs. Then you have to do it again, most likely.

It is not worth it.

In reply to jt2hunt $600 - $1000 for a regular electric
$1500 - $2000 for a hybrid electric

Difference of ~$1000 up front on the unit.
Labor is a wash. It's the same for both.
Annual energy savings of $300.
Payback is on the order of 3-4 years for most (without any tax benefit).

In reply to jt2hunt

jt2hunt said:

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https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-65-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Smart-Tank-Electric-Heat-Pump-Water-Heater-XE65T10H45U0/312741511?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=vantage&utm_campaign=23998&utm_content=25649&mtc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D26P-026_010_WATER_HEATER-NA-RHEEM-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862549001-23998-NBR-2529-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_Rheem_D26_RM%2B_AON&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D26P-026_010_WATER_HEATER-NA-RHEEM-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862549001-23998-NBR-2529-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_Rheem_D26_RM%2B_AON-71700000117584304--&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw88yxBhBWEiwA7cm6pXBEs7VBArGFdmdB0kdM8QycGp82GyWS7P5KmzGzwNzAb3TwhCQcNhoCmLAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

7 years to payback the cost of unit only, not labor. That would be another 3 years. 10 years to payback l&m costs. Then you have to do it again, most likely.

It is not worth it.

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A lot depends on the situation. Mine wasn't the exact same as the OP but was part of a HVAC geothermal heat pump install where I added a waste heat recovery system. In that case I received essentially free hot water during the cooling season (7-8 months where I live) and cheaper hot water during the heating season. Payback for both the heat pump and the waste heat recovery were under 3 years excluding tax credits. With the credit I claimed, it was under 6 months.

Heat pumps are amazingly efficient compared to traditional units. For the one in the OP, a lot of the economics will depend on each persons specific situation such as water usage, electricity cost, cost to install, etc.

In reply to RED AG 98

RED AG 98 said:

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$600 - $1000 for a regular electric
$1500 - $2000 for a hybrid electric

Difference of ~$1000 up front on the unit.
Labor is a wash. It's the same for both.
Annual energy savings of $300.
Payback is on the order of 3-4 years for most (without any tax benefit).

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That savings is a lie. The math does not check out.

In reply to Kansas Kid

Kansas Kid said:

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jt2hunt said:

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https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-65-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Smart-Tank-Electric-Heat-Pump-Water-Heater-XE65T10H45U0/312741511?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=vantage&utm_campaign=23998&utm_content=25649&mtc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D26P-026_010_WATER_HEATER-NA-RHEEM-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862549001-23998-NBR-2529-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_Rheem_D26_RM%2B_AON&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D26P-026_010_WATER_HEATER-NA-RHEEM-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862549001-23998-NBR-2529-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_Rheem_D26_RM%2B_AON-71700000117584304--&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw88yxBhBWEiwA7cm6pXBEs7VBArGFdmdB0kdM8QycGp82GyWS7P5KmzGzwNzAb3TwhCQcNhoCmLAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

7 years to payback the cost of unit only, not labor. That would be another 3 years. 10 years to payback l&m costs. Then you have to do it again, most likely.

It is not worth it.

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A lot depends on the situation. Mine wasn't the exact same as the OP but was part of a HVAC geothermal heat pump install where I added a waste heat recovery system. In that case I received essentially free hot water during the cooling season (7-8 months where I live) and cheaper hot water during the heating season. Payback for both the heat pump and the waste heat recovery were under 3 years excluding tax credits. With the credit I claimed, it was under 6 months.

Heat pumps are amazingly efficient compared to traditional units. For the one in the OP, a lot of the economics will depend on each persons specific situation such as water usage, electricity cost, cost to install, etc.

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a geothermal heat pump is like 20-30 grand for a vertical isn't?

Also they don't work as well if you don't get a good freeze each year, south of the DFW area they could have rough years unless it is vertical instead of horizontal.

In reply to Fightin_Aggie

Fightin_Aggie said:

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RED AG 98 said:

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$600 - $1000 for a regular electric
$1500 - $2000 for a hybrid electric

Difference of ~$1000 up front on the unit.
Labor is a wash. It's the same for both.
Annual energy savings of $300.
Payback is on the order of 3-4 years for most (without any tax benefit).

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That savings is a lie. The math does not check out.

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Show your work?

Standard 50 gal electric - est $419 per year
Hybrid electric 50 gal - $110 per year



Matt Risinger - $1500 Heat Pump Water Heater - Worth it? (buildshownetwork.com)
Bob Villa - The 6 Best Heat Pump Water Heaters to Save Energy (2024 Guide) (bobvila.com)

In reply to RED AG 98 Why are you not using the full price?
Talking about payback on the hybrid.
Not relevant what the cost of an electric or gas wh might be.


They are taller and require more space.

In reply to jt2hunt What is the full price? The numbers I used were for 50g units I can buy at Home Depot today.

I bought a heat pump water heater about ten years ago which I installed myself. It seemed to work fine. It quit working after a year or so. It was still under warranty so I called them and went through a trouble shooting process with them. We determined that it was the mother board that was bad but I would have to get a licensed contractor to remove it and send it in for warranty replacement. I could go ahead and order the replacement part which would arrive in a week or so at about $650. I was retired but my wife was still working. She needed to get up and shower in the morning so I ripped out that $1200 piece of crap and went to Lowes and got a standard water heater and we were back in business before nightfall, Not sure I would buy another.

In reply to Fightin_Aggie I haven't priced one in years so I can't comment on current costs. I have never heard of a freeze being necessary. The Earth is a giant heat sink so it shouldn't change temperature much assuming you have enough surface area for a horizontal. For a vertical pump and dump system, ground water temperatures wouldn't be affected by ambient temperatures at all.

These are used in Vegas at a number of hotels and resorts. They use closed looped systems with multiple wells.

https://m.vegasinc.lasvegassun.com/business/gaming/2013/may/21/golden-gate-owners-hit-rock-bottom-heating-and-coo/

Basically the government wants your family to shower every morning with a coffee machine as water heater. Then drive to work in a little stupid ass beep beep car.

MAGA 2024 is 75gallon WH and a V8... USA USA USA!

If you use your garage as your workshop, just think of it as a garage air conditioner that also heats your water.