The Presbyterian War or Rebellion…
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...
TheGreatEscape
10:23p, 12/24/23
Partisan? Provides 24 sources at the bottom of the article.


"Though the events transpired almost a quarter of a millenium ago, the shelves down at the local Barnes & Noble bookstore routinely continue to display freshly researched, written, and published histories of the American Revolution, the founding fathers, and the genesis of the United States.(1) Yet there remains an element of the American founding era that is routinely underrepresented in these volumesthe role of religion. It is a factor of the Revolution that many historians minimize. The revolution, they maintain, was essentially secular in nature.

But "No understanding of the eighteenth century is possible" warned Carl Bridenbaugh, "if we unconsciously omit, or consciously jam out, the religious theme just because our own milieu is secular."(2) Yet, as Kevin Phillips remarked, "Historians and commentators in the late twentieth-century United States have shrunk from emphasizing religion in their explanations of seventeenth and eighteenth century affairs."(3) Phillips argued that this is a gross error insofar as "any serious investigation of the patterns of rebellion and loyalty during the 1775-1783 fighting in the United States leads to religion."(4)

No one recognized this better than the foes of the American revolutionaries. Ambrose Serle, secretary to British General Howe in New York City, wrote to the British Secretary of State in 1776 telling him that the American Revolution was ultimately a religious war. (5) Serle's insights are perhaps worthy of special consideration given his privileged vantage point. In light of his intelligence, education, broad perspective, and eyewitness status, Serle's observations compel historians to incorporate his perspective into a comprehensive understanding of the conflict. Serle's biographer, Edward Tatum, Jr., who wrote the introduction to Serle's Diary put it in these terms:


Serle was no ordinary observer but one whose training and philosophy gave point to his opinions and coherence to his judgments. In addition, his unique position as a civilian in intimate association with Lord Howe afforded him an unusual opportunity to see more than one aspect of a complicated situation.(6)
Given Serle's erudition, his observations cannot be summarily dismissed. Serle argued for a deeper understanding of the dynamics of the revolution beneath the secular facade. He boldly asserted that the revolution could not be sustained in America if it were not for the Presbyterian ministers who bred it.(7) He lamented the fact that almost every minister in America doubled as a politician. Most significantly, he echoed a chant by loyalists throughout America, namely, that at the bottom of the conflict was the Presbyterians' desire to gain "the Establishment of their own Party."(8) In other words, he claimed that the war was fueled by the Presbyterians' desire to establish their religion as the official church of the new American government.

The same assessment may be made of Charles Inglis' perspective. He had a front row seat to the entire revolution. He, too, was highly educated and erudite. He had close contacts with a large number of loyalists in the know. If anyone was a principal mouthpiece for the opinions of loyalists, Inglis was. And what did he say? "It is absolutely certain, that on the part of many, the present is a Religious War."(9) Another such Tory during the war stated, "the American controversy is closely connected with Christianity in general, and with Protestantism in particular; and that, of consequence, it is of religious as well as of a civil nature."(10)

The important fact that King George III and his deputies on both sides of the Atlantic alleged that the colonial rebellion was a religious endeavor is no longer widely publicized. A number of scholars have casually mentioned this phenomenon in passing. Kevin Phillips, in his 1998 study of the American Revolution, twice noted: "King George III and other highly placed Britons called the colonists' rebellion a 'Presbyterian War.'"(11) Historians of yesteryear were a bit more attentive to this feature. According to William H. Nelson, the belief that most of the American revolutionaries were "congregational or presbyterian republicans," or at least of Calvinistic temperament "was held by almost all the Tories whose opinions survive." (12) According to the celebrated British historian of the American Revolution, George Trevelyan, in the early days of the revolution, loyalists alleged that "political agitation against the Royal Government had been deliberately planned by Presbyterians… it was fostered and abetted by Presbyterians in every colony."(13) John C. Miller observed, "To the end, the Churchmen believed that the Revolution was a Presbyterian-Congregationalist plot."(14) These references notwithstanding, historians no longer give much attention to this "Presbyterian plot" interpretation of the revolution. In light of the abundance of evidence, such is an irresponsible oversight.

The large building in the center of this 1775 engraving by Amos Doolittle is the Meetinghouse on Lexington green. Whereas Anglicans referred to their structures as "churches," Presbyterians rejected that notion, saying that the people are the "church" and the building is but a "meetinghouse." Source: New York Public Library
The large building in this 1775 Doolittle engraving is the Meetinghouse (church) on Lexington Green. In 1776 Tory William Jones said, "This has been a Presbyterian war… and accordingly the first firing against the King's troops was from a Massachuset meeting house." Source: New York Public Library.
A Hessian captain, fighting on behalf of the British, told a friend in Germany in 1778, "call this war, dearest friend, by whatsoever name you may, only call it not an American Revolution, it is nothing more nor less than an Irish-Scotch Presbyterian Rebellion." (15) Andrew Hammond, British commander of the HMS Roebuck, arrived in America just after the Declaration of Independence had been signed by the members of the Continental Congress. At that juncture, Hammond conveyed the perspective of the Anglicans, "It is the Presbyterians that have brought about this revolt, and aim at getting the government of America into their hands."(16) Isaac Atkinson, a Maryland loyalist, expressed his opinion of the revolution, that "it was a religious dispute and a Presbyterian scheme." (17) Thomas Smith, a supporter of the crown in Pennsylvania he held the view "that the whole was nothing but a scheme of a parcel of hot-headed Presbyterians." (18)
King George III was advised by William Jones in 1776, "this has been a Presbyterian war from the beginning… and accordingly the first firing against the King's troops was from a Massachuset (sic)meeting house." (19) Did the king agree with Jones? The evidence is overwhelming that he did.

From the beginning of the conflict, George III was convinced that the leading New England rebels were Presbyterians. This is proven by a remark he made to Massachusetts governor Thomas Hutchinson in 1774. When discussing the nature of the American dissident leadership with his representative from Massachusetts, the king exclaimed, "are they not Presbyterians?" (20) The king had every reason to suspect so. A letter published in a London newspaper only a month earlier came from a royalist in New York:

Believe me, the Presbyterians have been the chief and principal instruments in all these flaming measures, and they always do and ever will act against Government, from that restless and turbulent anti-monarchical spirit which has always distinguished them every where. (21)
The king maintained this sentiment throughout the war. In 1779 Benjamin Franklin, a rather reliable source of diplomatic intelligence, stated that George III hated the American Revolutionaries because the king perceived that they were "whigs and Presbyterians."(22)


Royal sentiments in this regard permeate the documentary record. Jones was not the only source who communicated this opinion to the king. We know that the British Secretary of State, Lord Dartmouth, who certainly had the king's ear, was also urged by an intelligence agent in America to understand that "Presbyterianism is at the bottom" of the war.(23)The provisional governor of Rhode Island, Nicholas Cooke, was told that the revolution was a Presbyterian war, and the royal governor of Rhode Island believed it.(24)

Were these Tories who considered the revolution a religious plot entirely sober in these reflections? Clearly not. They, too, were participants, embroiled in the fanaticism of the conflict. Their tendency to suspect that a Presbyterian minister was hiding behind every tree, secretly orchestrating the revolution from beginning to end, is Macarthyesque indeed. But the other extreme to which historians have gone is just as spurious. Religious and denominational dynamics were vitally central to the revolt. Historians have failed to state this as clearly as it deserves. The allegation that the American Revolution was a Presbyterian Rebellion is an important one to understand if we are to have a truly comprehensive understanding of what happened and why.

In short, the American Revolution did have a "holy war" dynamic to it that pitted Anglicans against dissenters (who were generally referred to as Presbyterians), and in the minds of the loyalists, the war was fundamentally, at bottom, a Presbyterian rebellion. It is, without question, an accurate assessment of how King George III and his advocates perceived the American war. Whether that perception was entirely accurate may be another question, but the very fact that it was how they viewed it is an important dynamic that should not be overlooked as we chronicle America's nativity narrative."



(1) Joseph Ellis, Walter Isaacson, David McCullough, Ron Chernow, and David Hackett Fischer have all recently published best sellers on this foundational era of American history.
(2) Carl Bridenbaugh, Mitre and Sceptre: Transatlantic Faiths, Ideas, Personalities, and Politics, 1689-1775, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1962), xi.
(3) Kevin Phillips, The Cousins' Wars: Religion, Politics, and the Triumph of Anglo-America (New York: Basic Books, 1999), 16.
(4) Phillips, Cousins' Wars, xxi.
(5) Benjamin F. Stevens, ed., Ambrose Serle to Lord Dartmouth, November 8, 1776 in B. F. Stevens' Facsimiles of Manuscripts in European Archives Relating to America 1773-1783, with Descriptions, Editorial Notes, Collations, References and Translations, vol. 24 (reprint Wilmington, DE: Mellifont Press, 1970) 2045.
(6) Edward Tatum, "Introduction," The American Journal of Ambrose Serle, Secretary to Lord Howe; 1776-1778, Edward Tatum, ed. (San Marino: Huntington Library, 1940), ix.
(7) The best scholarly treatment of this sentiment as a whole is Alice M. Baldwin, The New England Clergy and the American Revolution (New York: F. Ungar Pub. Co., 1958).
(8) The word "Presbyterian" was used in this context to include almost all Christians who dissented from Roman and Anglican ecclesiastical systems; see Richard Gardiner, The Presbyterian Rebellion (Ph.D. diss., Marquette University, 2005).
(9) Charles Inglis?, The Letters of Papinian: In Which the Conduct, Present State and Prospects, of the American Congress, Are Examined (New-York: Printed by Hugh Gaine, at the Bible and Crown in Hanover-Square, 1779), no. 5, 78; in Early American Imprints, 16311.
(10) John Fletcher, The Works of John Fletcher, 4 vols. (Salem, Ohio: Schmul Publishers, 1974), Vol. 4, 439. On the floor of Parliament, Sir Edmund Burke also gave an extensive account of how the Americans' Protestantism motivated the war. Edmund Burke, The Works of the Right Honourable Edmund Burke. 6 vols. (London: Henry G. Bohn, 1854-56), 1:464-71. John Adams concurred, saying that the religious element of the conflict was "a fact a certain as any in the history of North America." Adams to Jedediah Morse, December 2, 1815. Works of John Adams, X:185.
(11) Kevin Phillips, The Cousins' Wars: Religion, Politics and the Triumph of Anglo-America (New York: Basic Books, 1999), 92, 177. Other scholars who have mentioned that King George III blamed the Presbyterians for the war include Henry Ippel, "British Sermons and the American Revolution," Journal of Religious History (1982), Vol. 12, 193; James Graham Leyburn, The Scotch-Irish: A Social History (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1962), 305; The Journal of Presbyterian History 54, no. 1 (1976); David Calhoun, Princeton Seminary (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1994), Vol. 1, 15; H.M.J. Klein, ed., Lancaster County, Pennsylvania: A History (New York and Chicago: Lewis Historical Publishing Co., 1924), Vol. 1, 86; Paul Johnson, "God and the Americans," Gilder Lehrman Institute Lectures in American History, Oct. 1999; John A. Mackay, "Witherspoon of Paisley and Princeton," Theology Today, January 1962, Vol. 18, No. 4.
(12) William H. Nelson, The American Tory (New York: Oxford University Press, 1961), 51.
(13) Sir George Otto Trevelyan, The American Revolution (New York: Longmans, Green, & Co., 1915; New Edition), Vol. III:311-312.
(14) John C. Miller, Origins of the American Revolution (Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1943), 186.
(15) Capt. Johann Heinrichs to the Counsellor of the Court, January 18, 1778: "Extracts from the Letter Book of Captain Johann Heinrichs of the Hessian Jager Corps, 1778-1780," Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography 22 (1898), 137.
(16) A.S. Hammond, August 5, 1776, Hammond Papers, Alderman Library, University of Virginia, Charlottesville.
(17) Peter Force, American Archives, Fourth Series, Vol. III:1584.
(18) "Minutes of the Committee of Safety of Bucks County, Pennsylvania, 1774-1776," from the original in the library of General William Watts Hart Davis, Doylestown, Pennsylvania; entry for August 21, 1775, in Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography, Vol. 15 (1891), 266.
(19) William Jones, "An Address to the British Government on a Subject of Present Concern, 1776," The Theological, Philosophical and Miscellaneous Works of the Rev. William Jones, 12 vols. (London, 1801), Vol. 12, 356.
(20) King George III, July 1, 1774, quoted by Thomas Hutchinson, Diary and Letters of His Excellency Thomas Hutchinson, P.O. Hutchinson, ed. (Boston: Houghton & Mifflin, 1884; AMS Reprint, 1973), Vol. 1, 168.
(21) Peter Force, ed., "Extract of a Letter to a Gentleman in London, from New York, May 31, 1774" American Archives, Fourth Series, Vol. 1, 301.
(22) Papers of Benjamin Franklin 28:461-462
(23) Benjamin F. Stevens, ed., Ambrose Serle to the Earl of Dartmouth, April 25, 1777, in B.F. Stevens' Facsimiles of Manuscripts in European Archives Relating to America 1773-1783 (Wilmington: Mellifont Press, 1970), 2057.
(24) James Manning, quoted by Ezra Stiles, The Literary Diary of Ezra Stiles, Franklin Dexter, ed. Vol. 2, 23; see also Joseph Wanton, quoted by Ambrose Serle, Monday, February 2, 1778, American Journal of Ambrose Serle, 277.

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Gator92
5:37p, 12/28/23
Partisan how? That Presbyterians single handedly created the greatest nation on earth?

If so, I agree.

My patriot relative that fought w/ Marion in South Carolina and was the son of an Ulsterman agrees too...

TheGreatEscape
9:22a, 12/30/23
In reply to Gator92
Agreed.

Our Revolution was not like the atheistic French Revolution.
It was founded upon the idea of covenant and was a religious war. It was the Glorious Revolution Part 2.

Here is the link of me scatter shooting.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433168
FTACo88-FDT24dad
6:45p, 12/30/23
The colonies were not uniform or homogeneous in their religious beliefs. There were basically 4 major religious groups throughout the colonies prior to revolution: Puritans who were primarily in the New England colonies, Quakers in Pennsylvania, Royalist Anglicans in the tidewater areas and Presbyterian Scots primarily in the Appalachia area but also dispersed throughout the south and western Pennsylvania. Obviously, these are not "black and white" boundaries, especially in the large cities but in general these major groups are found in these areas.

So, which regions of the colonies were heavily influenced by this Presbyterianism? Which of the Founders would have been influenced by this school of thought?

Washington was Anglican. Adams was Congregationalist. Jefferson would have been nominally Anglican with theist rational/deist beliefs. Franklin probably had Presbyterian roots but was not a practicing Presbyterian and had moved in the direction of Disciples of Christ.

I am not saying the idea of a significant influence of Presbyterianism in the Revolution is wrong. I am asking "how"?

Thinking about this some more. Given that the major support for this idea is that royalist in Great Britain saw it in this way, it's probably worth considering how the Royalist Anglicans viewed a Presbyterian Scots as a people and as a religion in order to understand why they might see it the way that is suggested.
Sapper Redux
10:17p, 12/30/23
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
Should also be noted that a lot of the Ulster Scots in the backwoods had little or no religious upbringing. There weren't structured congregations or churches in many places and religious instruction depended on itinerant preachers. The vast majority of these settlers were illiterate. There are a few journals and letters from Anglican and Baptist ministers in North Carolina and western Virginia who lament this. It's not until the second great awakening that regular religious instruction is available in the more remote parts of the early republic. So there may be a cultural connection to Christianity across the colonies, but that doesn't mean the Ulster Scots in the Appalachians are deeply informed by Presbyterian theology.
TheGreatEscape
1:16p, 12/31/23
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

The colonies were not uniform or homogeneous in their religious beliefs. There were basically 4 major religious groups throughout the colonies prior to revolution: Puritans who were primarily in the New England colonies, Quakers in Pennsylvania, Royalist Anglicans in the tidewater areas and Presbyterian Scots primarily in the Appalachia area but also dispersed throughout the south and western Pennsylvania. Obviously, these are not "black and white" boundaries, especially in the large cities but in general these major groups are found in these areas.

So, which regions of the colonies were heavily influenced by this Presbyterianism? Which of the Founders would have been influenced by this school of thought?

Washington was Anglican. Adams was Congregationalist. Jefferson would have been nominally Anglican with theist rational/deist beliefs. Franklin probably had Presbyterian roots but was not a practicing Presbyterian and had moved in the direction of Disciples of Christ.

I am not saying the idea of a significant influence of Presbyterianism in the Revolution is wrong. I am asking "how"?

Thinking about this some more. Given that the major support for this idea is that royalist in Great Britain saw it in this way, it's probably worth considering how the Royalist Anglicans viewed a Presbyterian Scots as a people and as a religion in order to understand why they might see it the way that is suggested.


I have done the primary source research by searching Prefbyterians in British Newspapers and found that Presbyterians were being singled out as the main cause of the war.

I then searched for Congregationalists and Puritans without any articles found, save only three which listed all kinds of Christian traditions together. But none of the other traditions were singled out and Presbyterians were singled out and mentioned more than 28 times from 1772-1783.

There are also two references of the letters of the Prime Minister Horace Warpole of Presbyterians and Reformed Anglicans in his letters. I have read all of them. No other tradition was seen as a threat, especially the pacifist Quakers.

I also have two letters from an Hessian captain describing the war as a Presbyterian war.

Presbyterian churches were all over New England as well. To suggest that they weren't is false. They were not in the majority. But just like Jews representing only 1% of the world population, Presbyterians were the most influential in bringing us to fight in our second glorious revolution of 1776.

There is an article which describes parliament calling the war the Presbyterian War. And also Horace Warpole called it so in front of the House of Commons.

And there are several loyalists who called it the Prebyterian War or Rebellion that are sited in the Oliver Cromwell thread on the Religion forum as well.

I also have dozens of secondary sources collecting primary sources in that thread.

Where are your primary sources to suggest otherwise?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
2:04p, 12/31/23
In reply to TheGreatEscape
TheGreatEscape said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

The colonies were not uniform or homogeneous in their religious beliefs. There were basically 4 major religious groups throughout the colonies prior to revolution: Puritans who were primarily in the New England colonies, Quakers in Pennsylvania, Royalist Anglicans in the tidewater areas and Presbyterian Scots primarily in the Appalachia area but also dispersed throughout the south and western Pennsylvania. Obviously, these are not "black and white" boundaries, especially in the large cities but in general these major groups are found in these areas.

So, which regions of the colonies were heavily influenced by this Presbyterianism? Which of the Founders would have been influenced by this school of thought?

Washington was Anglican. Adams was Congregationalist. Jefferson would have been nominally Anglican with theist rational/deist beliefs. Franklin probably had Presbyterian roots but was not a practicing Presbyterian and had moved in the direction of Disciples of Christ.

I am not saying the idea of a significant influence of Presbyterianism in the Revolution is wrong. I am asking "how"?

Thinking about this some more. Given that the major support for this idea is that royalist in Great Britain saw it in this way, it's probably worth considering how the Royalist Anglicans viewed a Presbyterian Scots as a people and as a religion in order to understand why they might see it the way that is suggested.


I have done the primary source research by searching Prefbyterians in British Newspapers and found that Presbyterians were being singled out as the main cause of the war.

I then searched for Congregationalists and Puritans without any articles found, save only three which listed all kinds of Christian traditions together. But none of the other traditions were singled out and Presbyterians were singled out and mentioned more than 28 times from 1772-1783.

There are also two references of the letters of the Prime Minister Horace Warpole of Presbyterians and Reformed Anglicans in his letters. I have read all of them. No other tradition was seen as a threat, especially the pacifist Quakers.

I also have two letters from an Hessian captain describing the war as a Presbyterian war.

Presbyterian churches were all over New England as well. To suggest that they weren't is false. They were not in the majority. But just like Jews representing only 1% of the world population, Presbyterians were the most influential in bringing us to fight in our second glorious revolution of 1776.

There is an article which describes parliament calling the war the Presbyterian War. And also Horace Warpole called it so in front of the House of Commons.

And there are several loyalists who called it the Prebyterian War or Rebellion that are sited in the Oliver Cromwell thread on the Religion forum as well.

I also have dozens of secondary sources collecting primary sources in that thread.

Where are your primary sources to suggest otherwise?


I don't mean to be rude, but you are responding to something I never said. There was definitely tension between Presbyterians and Anglicans in GB. The fact that there is evidence that Anglicans in GB blamed Presbyterians in the colonies for fomenting the revolution is not surprising and is one perspective on that question. It may very well be true that Presbyterians were the fuel of the revolution, but a bunch of Anglicans in GB saying so is neither surprising nor conclusive.

My question, and it's not rhetorical, is where is the data from within the colonies that is consistent with the theory that you have shared and shown data to support?

Rongagin71
2:45p, 12/31/23
In reply to Sapper Redux
Sapper Redux said:

Should also be noted that a lot of the Ulster Scots in the backwoods had little or no religious upbringing. There weren't structured congregations or churches in many places and religious instruction depended on itinerant preachers. The vast majority of these settlers were illiterate. There are a few journals and letters from Anglican and Baptist ministers in North Carolina and western Virginia who lament this. It's not until the second great awakening that regular religious instruction is available in the more remote parts of the early republic. So there may be a cultural connection to Christianity across the colonies, but that doesn't mean the Ulster Scots in the Appalachians are deeply informed by Presbyterian theology.
The current church most representative of poor (couldn't afford an organ to play so went acapella?) type Congregationalist is the Church of Christ, although Southern Baptist must fit in there too.
I remember my mother, who was a Church of Christ Sunday School teacher, calling Presbyterians "Country Club Christians".
FTACo88-FDT24dad
3:04p, 12/31/23
In reply to Rongagin71
Rongagin71 said:

Sapper Redux said:

Should also be noted that a lot of the Ulster Scots in the backwoods had little or no religious upbringing. There weren't structured congregations or churches in many places and religious instruction depended on itinerant preachers. The vast majority of these settlers were illiterate. There are a few journals and letters from Anglican and Baptist ministers in North Carolina and western Virginia who lament this. It's not until the second great awakening that regular religious instruction is available in the more remote parts of the early republic. So there may be a cultural connection to Christianity across the colonies, but that doesn't mean the Ulster Scots in the Appalachians are deeply informed by Presbyterian theology.
The current church most representative of poor (couldn't afford an organ to play so went acapella?) type Congregationalist is the Church of Christ, although Southern Baptist must fit in there too.
I remember my mother, who was a Church of Christ Sunday School teacher, calling Presbyterians "Country Club Christians".


I think Sapper's comments are very relevant to this discussion. Those Scot-Irish, nominally Presbyterian colonists who lived in Appalachia were no fans of the British given that their ancestors in the borderland areas of GB had been fighting the royalist Anglicans for centuries and were then seriously mistreated by them in Ulster before they left it all behind to migrate to the colonies and take up residence in the "backwoods" where they just wanted to be left alone. It wasn't hard to motivate them to come down out of the mountains and kill red coats. But I don't think that motivation was religious.
TheGreatEscape
8:39p, 12/31/23
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

TheGreatEscape said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

The colonies were not uniform or homogeneous in their religious beliefs. There were basically 4 major religious groups throughout the colonies prior to revolution: Puritans who were primarily in the New England colonies, Quakers in Pennsylvania, Royalist Anglicans in the tidewater areas and Presbyterian Scots primarily in the Appalachia area but also dispersed throughout the south and western Pennsylvania. Obviously, these are not "black and white" boundaries, especially in the large cities but in general these major groups are found in these areas.

So, which regions of the colonies were heavily influenced by this Presbyterianism? Which of the Founders would have been influenced by this school of thought?

Washington was Anglican. Adams was Congregationalist. Jefferson would have been nominally Anglican with theist rational/deist beliefs. Franklin probably had Presbyterian roots but was not a practicing Presbyterian and had moved in the direction of Disciples of Christ.

I am not saying the idea of a significant influence of Presbyterianism in the Revolution is wrong. I am asking "how"?

Thinking about this some more. Given that the major support for this idea is that royalist in Great Britain saw it in this way, it's probably worth considering how the Royalist Anglicans viewed a Presbyterian Scots as a people and as a religion in order to understand why they might see it the way that is suggested.


I have done the primary source research by searching Prefbyterians in British Newspapers and found that Presbyterians were being singled out as the main cause of the war.

I then searched for Congregationalists and Puritans without any articles found, save only three which listed all kinds of Christian traditions together. But none of the other traditions were singled out and Presbyterians were singled out and mentioned more than 28 times from 1772-1783.

There are also two references of the letters of the Prime Minister Horace Warpole of Presbyterians and Reformed Anglicans in his letters. I have read all of them. No other tradition was seen as a threat, especially the pacifist Quakers.

I also have two letters from an Hessian captain describing the war as a Presbyterian war.

Presbyterian churches were all over New England as well. To suggest that they weren't is false. They were not in the majority. But just like Jews representing only 1% of the world population, Presbyterians were the most influential in bringing us to fight in our second glorious revolution of 1776.

There is an article which describes parliament calling the war the Presbyterian War. And also Horace Warpole called it so in front of the House of Commons.

And there are several loyalists who called it the Prebyterian War or Rebellion that are sited in the Oliver Cromwell thread on the Religion forum as well.

I also have dozens of secondary sources collecting primary sources in that thread.

Where are your primary sources to suggest otherwise?


I don't mean to be rude, but you are responding to something I never said. There was definitely tension between Presbyterians and Anglicans in GB. The fact that there is evidence that Anglicans in GB blamed Presbyterians in the colonies for fomenting the revolution is not surprising and is one perspective on that question. It may very well be true that Presbyterians were the fuel of the revolution, but a bunch of Anglicans in GB saying so is neither surprising nor conclusive.

My question, and it's not rhetorical, is where is the data from within the colonies that is consistent with the theory that you have shared and shown data to support?




There were tensions between historically Reformed Anglicans and unreformed Anglicans both in Great Britain and in the Colonies.
In reality this was a war of the Reformed Tradition (the Presbyterians, the Dutch Reformed, the Anglican Reformed, Reformed Baptists, and the Congregationalist Reformed verses tyranny.

We started it, we worked both sides of the war here and across the pond, and we were not "reason alone atheists" of the French Revolution. The French Revolution is taught as a similar thing occurrence to our Reformed War of independence. It was not. It was quite the opposite.
The French Revolution was a war to overthrow religion and not establish religious liberty as ours was.
For the French Revolutionaries slaughtered over 100,000
Catholics who believed in the legal code based upon scripture and church tradition.

I will hear no more of these two Revolutions being displayed as one and the same. They are direct contrasts and not comparisons.

I'll get to the data.

Well…this is what the church historian claims.

"It is estimated that of the 3,000,000 Americans at the time of the American Revolution, 900,000 were of Scotch or Scotch-Irish origin, 600,000 were Puritan English, and 400,000 were German or Dutch Reformed. In addition to this the Episcopalians had a Calvinistic confession in their Thirty-nine Articles; and many French Huguenots also had come to this western world. Thus we see that about two-thirds of the colonial population had been trained in the school of Calvin."

[18] Hist. U. S., I., p. 463.

[19] Presbyterians and the Revolution, p. 49.

How do we know? Baptism and enlistment records.
TheGreatEscape
9:04p, 12/31/23
Moreover, you've been told a lie that the founding fathers were all deists. No you can't state the following…separation of church and state. Hahaha l.

In the Constitutional Convention, there were 55 men.
50 out of the 55 men were all orthodox Trinitarian Christians.
50 out of 55…50 out of 55…

And Jefferson that is always quoted about separation of church and state wasn't even invited to the Constitutional Convention. You should quote Rodger Sherman and Madison on the issue because what they wrote down was to get rid of any possible state Church of England situation again. It simply meant that. We don't interpret French literature out of its original historical context either, nor the Bible, nor the US Constitution, nor History and this is what you secularists have done.

And I realize that Marxists hate history.
TheGreatEscape
9:19p, 12/31/23
And the two men who were deists were Franklin and Jefferson. And they were not good deists because they believed that God intervened in human affairs. So they were heretical deists. And they had to hide their oddities because the population was Christian to have any influence at all.

In 1882, we won a court case called "Holy Trinity verse the United States." SCOTUS determined the case based on the merits. Then they went back to the charters and other state constitutional documents and founded that we are a Christian nation. It was an astonishing array of support.

We were founded as a Christian union of states.
This is neglected.

The five who wrote the Declaration of Independence stated "we hold these truths to be self-evident."
For these unalienable rights endowed from the Creator were only self-evident because we were a Christian nation.

Now these rights are under threat and we won't go to the source or foundation from whence they derived.
TheGreatEscape
12:00a, 1/1/24
And reaching back to the Anglican split during the same
time of the Reformed American Revolution beginnings among the clergy of those who held to the Reformed 39 Articles of Thomas Cranmer and company during the English Reformation;
we find this in an English Newspaper reporting official a decision made by Parliament to do away with requirements of adhering to the namely the doctrine of double predestination in the 39 Articles. For that is always an issue…

April 1772



FTACo88-FDT24dad
4:20p, 1/2/24
In reply to TheGreatEscape
TheGreatEscape said:

Moreover, you've been told a lie that the founding fathers were all deists. No you can't state the following…separation of church and state. Hahaha l.

In the Constitutional Convention, there were 55 men.
50 out of the 55 men were all orthodox Trinitarian Christians.
50 out of 55…50 out of 55…

And Jefferson that is always quoted about separation of church and state wasn't even invited to the Constitutional Convention. You should quote Rodger Sherman and Madison on the issue because what they wrote down was to get rid of any possible state Church of England situation again. It simply meant that. We don't interpret French literature out of its original historical context either, nor the Bible, nor the US Constitution, nor History and this is what you secularists have done.

And I realize that Marxists hate history.


Man, I don't know who you are arguing with but your fight isn't with me. You have a lot to share but not every discussion needs to be a dialectical cage match.
TheGreatEscape
6:30p, 1/2/24
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
Liked your post.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
7:14a, 1/3/24
In reply to TheGreatEscape
TheGreatEscape said:

Liked your post.


Have you read Albion's Seed?
Rongagin71
7:39a, 1/3/24
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Liked your post.


Have you read Albion's Seed?
A good book review.
Only thing I can say in defense of his criticism of Virginians is that they had larger farms, called plantations, and needed labor because there were no tractors with farm implements in those days.

FTACo88-FDT24dad
10:02a, 1/3/24
In reply to Rongagin71
Rongagin71 said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Liked your post.


Have you read Albion's Seed?
A good book review.
Only thing I can say in defense of his criticism of Virginians is that they had larger farms, called plantations, and needed labor because there were no tractors with farm implements in those days.


Interesting. I think the value of Albion's Seed is it offers a very plausible explanation of how religion and culture dramatically impacted the evolution of the colonies and the country after the rebellion and continues to impact our country to this day. I think it should be required reading for every high school senior if not every college graduate in this country. It doesn't necessarily support the thesis that Presbyterians are behind it all, but it does support the idea that as a major influence within a couple of these major migration groups Presbyterianism of the time had a real influence on the revolution and afterward how the country developed.

[snarkism alert] - I assume that anyone claiming that Presbyterianism had an outsized impact on the revolution would also agree that same religious viewpoint dramatically influenced its adherents in the south who read the Bible according to its tenets and decided that it was perfectly consistent with the moral instructions of the Bible, if not outright morally laudable, to enslave and treat kidnapped Africans and their progeny as chattel?
TheGreatEscape
5:56p, 1/3/24
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Liked your post.


Have you read Albion's Seed?


Do not care. Could you provide his primary sources from at the time of the event, please?
Sapper Redux
9:27p, 1/3/24
In reply to TheGreatEscape
You realize when you're making sweeping claims that clips of newspapers or random quotes is not enough to support an argument?
Rongagin71
9:53p, 1/3/24
In reply to Sapper Redux
Sapper Redux said:

You realize when you're making sweeping claims that clips of newspapers or random quotes is not enough to support an argument?
I don't think he does....
FTACo88-FDT24dad
3:01p, 1/4/24
In reply to TheGreatEscape
TheGreatEscape said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

TheGreatEscape said:

Liked your post.


Have you read Albion's Seed?


Do not care. Could you provide his primary sources from at the time of the event, please?
It was a serious question.

Are you trying to be intentionally daft or is this humor? I don't understand the approach.
Sapper Redux
9:17p, 1/4/24
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
I don't think he's familiar with how historical analysis works. I have problems with Albion's Seed, but it's at least a good starting point for analysis. The wall of primary source snippets is fine if you can tie it to some kind of large scale analysis. But there isn't one here.
Gator92
5:41p, 1/7/24
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
Quote:

I think Sapper's comments are very relevant to this discussion. Those Scot-Irish, nominally Presbyterian colonists who lived in Appalachia were no fans of the British given that their ancestors in the borderland areas of GB had been fighting the royalist Anglicans for centuries and were then seriously mistreated by them in Ulster before they left it all behind to migrate to the colonies and take up residence in the "backwoods" where they just wanted to be left alone. It wasn't hard to motivate them to come down out of the mountains and kill red coats. But I don't think that motivation was religious.
This describes my son of an Ulsterman Patriot relative. Born 1741 Camden District York County SC. His father born County Antrim.




Gator92
5:49p, 1/7/24
In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad
Quote:

Quakers in Pennsylvania, Royalist Anglicans in the tidewater areas and Presbyterian Scots primarily in the Appalachia area but also dispersed throughout the south and western Pennsylvania.
Quakers in PA thought it a good idea to give lands to Ulster Scots to create a buffer zone between them and the natives.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
5:53p, 1/7/24
In reply to Gator92
Gator92 said:

Quote:

Quakers in Pennsylvania, Royalist Anglicans in the tidewater areas and Presbyterian Scots primarily in the Appalachia area but also dispersed throughout the south and western Pennsylvania.
Quakers in PA thought it a good idea to give lands to Ulster Scots to create a buffer zone between them and the natives.



The Quakers were also heavily and sometimes violently persecuted by the other three major groups. William Penn got his colony because he was a friend of the king who was Anglican and became Quaker and the king basically said, "hey, you're my friend and all, but you need to get out of here. I am giving you a colony so you can go do you but just do it somewhere else."
tmaggies
6:19p, 1/7/24
In reply to Gator92
Gator92 said:

Partisan how? That Presbyterians single handedly created the greatest nation on earth?

If so, I agree.

My patriot relative that fought w/ Marion in South Carolina and was the son of an Ulsterman agrees too...





Had a Grimes relative that also fought with Marion
TheGreatEscape
8:07a, 1/8/24
In reply to Sapper Redux
Sapper Redux said:

I don't think he's familiar with how historical analysis works. I have problems with Albion's Seed, but it's at least a good starting point for analysis. The wall of primary source snippets is fine if you can tie it to some kind of large scale analysis. But there isn't one here.



Great points. I am only familiar by reading German George Hegel's A PHILOSOPHY OF HISTORY and how his analytics have affected historical interpretations. Read Hegel for the history of thought concerning well history.

I also see a lot of influence of gas lighting history with an agenda in my reading of Karl Marx.
Many things I submit that the German sciences and phenomenology philosophy are superior.
However, when it comes to history read both the British and Americans before the end of the 19th Century (1800's) in order to apply history proper before considering the influence of Hegel and Marx.
Not only that, historians before the 19th Century in America many were the sons of the American War of Independence.
There were 39 Articles Anglicans and Confessional Presbyterians working both sides here and across the pond for the American Independence Cause.

And when doing history, it is important to understand what was common sense, self-evident, or the cultural context.
The other thing is how cause and effect started the war to begin.
If someone were to piece together the primary sources captured at the time of the event development and secondary sources of authority; also verified evidence that the front runners of the reforming the American colonies were the Presbyterians.

And the vast majority who wanted independence were Christians. I speculate 94% of the entire culture. Maybe more?

And I am not a Presbyterian. I am a Reformed Anglican.
TheGreatEscape
8:13a, 1/8/24
In reply to tmaggies
tmaggies said:

Gator92 said:

Partisan how? That Presbyterians single handedly created the greatest nation on earth?

If so, I agree.

My patriot relative that fought w/ Marion in South Carolina and was the son of an Ulsterman agrees too...





Had a Grimes relative that also fought with Marion


Too cool. I had family among the representation fighting for the cause and were Reformed Presbyterians. Wallace family history. We have a book in print.
We are also connected to Big Foot Wallace (The Texas Ranger). He left from the Virginia clan to start his own down in Waterloo now called Austin before the left took control. Haha. And my the rest of the Wallace's of Virginia stayed or moved to states like Tennessee after the Civil War.
Five children moved to Texas. All were college educated. One moved to Rockwall with his wife (my great great grandpa. And we have been here ever since.

And so I submit this in the honor of my passed away father. He was a Vietnam vet. And he passed away last summer. He is in an even better place now. He also was class of 1974 of Texas A&M. Amen.
TheGreatEscape
10:39a, 1/8/24
A lifelong member of the Brattle Street (Congregationalist) Church in Boston, Hancock was one of the nation's major founders, along with John Adams, Samuel Adams, Roger Sherman, John Witherspoon, and James Wilson, who either belonged to or pastored a Congregationalist or Presbyterian church or had a Reformed ...

https://academic.oup.com/book/12737/chapter-abstract/162839906?redirectedFrom=fulltext#

Paul Revere, the silversmith British are coming guy, was Huguenot Reformed. They are the French Reformed from whence John (Jean) Calvin learned the Scriptures from and what is known as Calvinism. William Penn was a Reformes Huguenot as well.

Sam Adams of whom likely designed the Boston Tea Party was a Congregationalist Calvinist and a graduate from Harvard.


Sapper Redux
11:44a, 1/8/24
In reply to TheGreatEscape
Yeah, a lot of protestants in colonial America. A lot of Congregationalists in New England. Amazing, shocking, who knew? Congregationalists are not Presbyterians. Congregationalists did not particularly like Presbyterians. They didn't necessarily have an issue with Presbyterians in theory, but they did not like them in practice. If they were so similar, you would have expected the waves of Ulster Scots to start by settling in New England. Aside from one wave in 1713 to New Hampshire, Ulster immigration to New England never materialized because the Congregational leadership in Massachusetts rapidly grew exasperated with the Ulster migrants and made it difficult for them to form autonomous communities.
Sapper Redux
11:47a, 1/8/24
In reply to TheGreatEscape
Quote:

However, when it comes to history read both the British and Americans before the end of the 19th Century (1800's) in order to apply history proper before considering the influence of Hegel and Marx.
No. Just... no. That's called "Whig History," and it existed (and freely admitted it existed) to promote a nationalist narrative based largely on what today we call "great man" history. I've read a ton of it. You can't do colonial history without analyzing the Whig historiography since it influences so much of the dominant narrative. It provides nice narratives, but it does as much to obfuscate historical processes and complexities as it does to explain them.
TheGreatEscape
12:11p, 1/8/24
In reply to Sapper Redux
Sapper Redux said:

Yeah, a lot of protestants in colonial America. A lot of Congregationalists in New England. Amazing, shocking, who knew? Congregationalists are not Presbyterians. Congregationalists did not particularly like Presbyterians. They didn't necessarily have an issue with Presbyterians in theory, but they did not like them in practice. If they were so similar, you would have expected the waves of Ulster Scots to start by settling in New England. Aside from one wave in 1713 to New Hampshire, Ulster immigration to New England never materialized because the Congregational leadership in Massachusetts rapidly grew exasperated with the Ulster migrants and made it difficult for them to form autonomous communities.


We already went though this. Presbyterian equals a form of church Republican government. Congregationalist equals a form of church pure democratic government.
Both were once together underneath an hierarchy form of Church together as fellow Anglicans. The first puritans were comprised of all the above and subscribed to the Reformed 39 Articles. To purify the Anglican Church is what they did do mostly. But I believe some Congregationalists went too far.
At first it was no big deal.

Both conversed and worked together as kindred of the Reformed tradition. Double predestinatarians do stick together because of some minor intellectual persecution experienced. Remember that the Catholics integrated against the English Reformers so much for
It that Bloody Mary burned all of them at the stake. Thomas Cranmer brought us the 39 Articles and was the chief writer of the Book of Common prayer.

True of Ulster Scots were not allowed in one colony of New
Jersey because they the Congregationalists wanted both their community government and their colony government to be more of a pure democracy and not an elected Republican representative elder type rule in government.
That is one of the anomalies out of preference. Not out of disdain. I forgive your ignorance.
TheGreatEscape
12:23p, 1/8/24
In reply to Sapper Redux
Sapper Redux said:

Quote:

However, when it comes to history read both the British and Americans before the end of the 19th Century (1800's) in order to apply history proper before considering the influence of Hegel and Marx.
No. Just... no. That's called "Whig History," and it existed (and freely admitted it existed) to promote a nationalist narrative based largely on what today we call "great man" history. I've read a ton of it. You can't do colonial history without analyzing the Whig historiography since it influences so much of the dominant narrative. It provides nice narratives, but it does as much to obfuscate historical processes and complexities as it does to explain them.


Whig history equals conservative history. For from them were berthed the Democratic Republicans by the time of the third presidency four terms later by Thomas Jefferson. Don't get caught up in labels. You should have learned this A&M history professor when the radica liberal Republicans of the North before the Civil War would event become Northern Democrats. And the Southern Democrats later evolved into Southern Republicans. And yes we have those even to today in smaller numbers in the North and the South.

And that is something missing. Not only his personal individual cultural contextual history important to connect to pedagogical transformations and interests; personal history included the moral foundations for who we are. That is one of the major great conversations when doing history proper.

We know you are slanted with Marxist bias and are an agnostic and inclined to hate all things Divine.

Keep beating that drum. The more you do the rims will give in and cause more holes in your case for the American public to see how manipulative you are.
TheGreatEscape
12:31p, 1/8/24
Moreover, I am not done. If you Marxists don't repent. Thoughts have consequences because you all do not study the history of thought. Not allow for Christian thought in the development of our fine government. The best model originally for many many years that the world has ever seen. And still is greater than all.

You are supposed to have some academic humility. And hopefully this humbles you and your repent of the madness gaslighting history. Tears down statues and erases history both the good and the bad and the ugly. So we won't learn from it and doomed to never apply the information to current events.

You all just present current events to support some sort of effort to change the human soul. But all you do is aim by the power of suggestion from your authority upon the student of history that we are going to fart roses and everyone will be rich when we deconstruct everything to Nichean everything is reduced to a power grab and this is the grounds for leftist historical epistemological worldview of politics.

Marxism is dead. God is not. He arose from the grace.
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