In reply to Sterling82
The mental gymnastics folks go through to try to say Sherman was better than Sumlin is bizarre. Sherman was 25-25 against big 12 competition - Sumlin was 51-26 against sec. How can you make the statement he was best coach in the 21st century with a straight face?
9:38a, 4/5/24
I wouldnt put either one too far in front of the other. Sumlin had better results, but Kevin Sumlin probably wouldn't have gone 17-9 or something with the 2008 and 2009 teams that Mike Sherman had to coach. He would've started 10-15 or whatever also. Sumlin got to coach Sherman's best team, and to his credit, possibly did way better than Sherman would have done with it. Sumlin never built a program, though, and failed miserably in the first try at Arizona. He might not have ever even gotten to the point where he had a winning team if he took over our program in 2008 as Sherman did.
9:50a, 4/5/24
Sherman, Sumlin, and Fisher all three struggled mightily with roster management and in game management. Sherman and Jimbo had offensive identities but struggled to adapt their situational play calling. Sumlin had no real identity as he went from Leach air raid, to single back meshed w/ air raid, to the HUNO zone read of the N-Zone offense which lead to a hodgepodge of players by 2017. Sherman and Sumlin all but ignored defensive recruiting while Jimbo put too much trust in his last DC that ran a scheme that did not fit our players. Sumlin and Jimbo couldn't get a grip on their OL while Sherman was great at OL. All three were stubborn to the point of being fired. They all recruited really well but they weren't willing to make improvements to the way they managed the program and the assistants and it led to disappointment. Sherman was a really good X & O coach, he and his staff knew how to sign and develop top talent, but he didnt know how to adapt and he didnt address roster management. The 2012 team played like 20 guys all year on defense out of necessity.
10:52a, 4/5/24
In reply to Triple-T
Sherman's teams were soft and blew many games against average opponents we should have rocked.
Showers probably also starts in '12 if Sherm doesn't get fired.
Also notable-Triple-T said:
Also notable:
Sherman was not a drunkard who got wasted with his players.
Or an egomaniac who got a massively overvalued contract with no penalties for underperformance.
Sherman's teams were soft and blew many games against average opponents we should have rocked.
Showers probably also starts in '12 if Sherm doesn't get fired.
11:27a, 4/5/24
And this has faded into the past, but Sherman was aligned with $Bill that we weren't ready for SEC. Loser mentality. Thank god that Bow tie had a greater vision for what we would could be as an Athletic program.
11:41a, 4/5/24
Sherman was easily the best coach at A&M since I started following the program in the late 90's
I lost hope in this program with his firing by seeing how short sighted our fanbase is and egotistical our big influencers are. Bill Wilson forced his buddy Sumlin into the job when all Sherman needed was a new S&C and DC to put it all together for sustained success
I lost hope in this program with his firing by seeing how short sighted our fanbase is and egotistical our big influencers are. Bill Wilson forced his buddy Sumlin into the job when all Sherman needed was a new S&C and DC to put it all together for sustained success
12:15p, 4/5/24
What's even more impressive is how well our line did/looked given that JFF was back there.
It's not easy to block for a back that improvises.
It's not easy to block for a back that improvises.
1:08p, 4/5/24
In reply to AgDad121619
Saying Sumlin was 51-26 against the SEC when he was 25-23 are the mental gymnastics. How can you say THAT with a straight face? Nevertheless, I still believe Sumlin had the potential to be a great coach and, unlike Sherman, early success was gifted to him in the form of Manziel, Mike Evans and some other top players recruited by Sherman. Sumlin used the early success to springboard into some very good recruiting which, if he had stayed true to his task, would have kept him here for a long time. Sadly, the last news we have on him instead, is a DWI arrest. Sumlin's story is a sad one of unfulfilled potential.
AgDad121619 said:
The mental gymnastics folks go through to try to say Sherman was better than Sumlin is bizarre. Sherman was 25-25 against big 12 competition - Sumlin was 51-26 against sec. How can you make the statement he was best coach in the 21st century with a straight face?
Saying Sumlin was 51-26 against the SEC when he was 25-23 are the mental gymnastics. How can you say THAT with a straight face? Nevertheless, I still believe Sumlin had the potential to be a great coach and, unlike Sherman, early success was gifted to him in the form of Manziel, Mike Evans and some other top players recruited by Sherman. Sumlin used the early success to springboard into some very good recruiting which, if he had stayed true to his task, would have kept him here for a long time. Sadly, the last news we have on him instead, is a DWI arrest. Sumlin's story is a sad one of unfulfilled potential.
1:58p, 4/5/24
Don't underestimate the effect of having NFL legacies (Matthews brothers) on the team and probably their dad's influence. But yeah, the general consensus is that Sherman knew o-lines and that's a big part of why Bruce sent his sons here. Offensive line is the primary determinant of the quality of a football team. Always has been, always will be.
3:17p, 4/5/24
In reply to AgDad121619
Sumlin was 17-19 in SEC after that frst year (6-2) with Johnny and a team Sherman built. His teams got progressively worse despite the early momentum.
Sherman took over a team in disarray and improved it every year (yes, even his last year team was better than 2010, but lost a lot of close games late).
I'm glad to see Sherman getting hus due here- I always maintained he was a good program builder. His weakness though was in-game management, no doubt.
What he did with Tech though was glorious! Leach had our number bad, and Sherman completely dominated their attack his last three years, going 2-0 in Lubbock with a 22 pt win at Tech in Leach's last yr (2009), an 18 pt win at Kyle in 2010 and a 5 pt win in Lunnock in 2011.
Also, Arkansas showed how far we came. in 2009 (start of series) Ark dominated 47-19 and Sherm said hiw we needed to get bigger and tougher to match up w SEC caliber. in 2010 we lost 24-17 in a competitive game. Next yr iur 14th ranked team lost to their 18th 42-38 in a game we dominated in the first half. again poor game mgmt in 2nd half. But the transformation of the team was apparent and the next yr under Sumlin we crushed them at Kyle 58-10.
AgDad121619 said:
The mental gymnastics folks go through to try to say Sherman was better than Sumlin is bizarre. Sherman was 25-25 against big 12 competition - Sumlin was 51-26 against sec. How can you make the statement he was best coach in the 21st century with a straight face?
Sumlin was 17-19 in SEC after that frst year (6-2) with Johnny and a team Sherman built. His teams got progressively worse despite the early momentum.
Sherman took over a team in disarray and improved it every year (yes, even his last year team was better than 2010, but lost a lot of close games late).
I'm glad to see Sherman getting hus due here- I always maintained he was a good program builder. His weakness though was in-game management, no doubt.
What he did with Tech though was glorious! Leach had our number bad, and Sherman completely dominated their attack his last three years, going 2-0 in Lubbock with a 22 pt win at Tech in Leach's last yr (2009), an 18 pt win at Kyle in 2010 and a 5 pt win in Lunnock in 2011.
Also, Arkansas showed how far we came. in 2009 (start of series) Ark dominated 47-19 and Sherm said hiw we needed to get bigger and tougher to match up w SEC caliber. in 2010 we lost 24-17 in a competitive game. Next yr iur 14th ranked team lost to their 18th 42-38 in a game we dominated in the first half. again poor game mgmt in 2nd half. But the transformation of the team was apparent and the next yr under Sumlin we crushed them at Kyle 58-10.
3:57p, 4/5/24
In reply to AgBQ-00
All you guys on here really can't compare Sherman's tenure to the other coaches. Coach Sherman had one hell of a hole to dig this program out of people. Don't realize what an absolute mess it was in and how high school coaches turned their nose on us every time the previous coach walked in. That man wrote personal letters to the high school coaches to rebuild this program, I think given the opportunity he would have succeeded and turning this program into a winning program with another 2 to 3 years, especially with JFF as his quarterback, he was very much into developing players, not trying to find a gimmick to win
4:13p, 4/5/24
In reply to Divining Rod
sherman was 9-16 in the big 12 if you remove his one 6-2 season and 15-18 if you include his greatest season. He was a good offensive talent analyzer but he was an average HC at best. It was time to move on from Sumlin but it is asinine to say Sherman was a better HC. Sumlin took Sherman's 6-7 Big 12 team with an NFL QB to 11-2 in the SEC with a fish QB. The 2011 season was one of the worst wastes of talent of any team since 1988.Divining Rod said:AgDad121619 said:
The mental gymnastics folks go through to try to say Sherman was better than Sumlin is bizarre. Sherman was 25-25 against big 12 competition - Sumlin was 51-26 against sec. How can you make the statement he was best coach in the 21st century with a straight face?
Sumlin was 17-19 in SEC after that frst year (6-2) with Johnny and a team Sherman built. His teams got progressively worse despite the early momentum.
Sherman took over a team in disarray and improved it every year (yes, even his last year team was better than 2010, but lost a lot of close games late).
I'm glad to see Sherman getting hus due here- I always maintained he was a good program builder. His weakness though was in-game management, no doubt.
What he did with Tech though was glorious! Leach had our number bad, and Sherman completely dominated their attack his last three years, going 2-0 in Lubbock with a 22 pt win at Tech in Leach's last yr (2009), an 18 pt win at Kyle in 2010 and a 5 pt win in Lunnock in 2011.
Also, Arkansas showed how far we came. in 2009 (start of series) Ark dominated 47-19 and Sherm said hiw we needed to get bigger and tougher to match up w SEC caliber. in 2010 we lost 24-17 in a competitive game. Next yr iur 14th ranked team lost to their 18th 42-38 in a game we dominated in the first half. again poor game mgmt in 2nd half. But the transformation of the team was apparent and the next yr under Sumlin we crushed them at Kyle 58-10.
9:08p, 4/5/24
In reply to harge57
After the Fran years A&M was not a top destination and the talent level that was here was mediocre.
Sherman was able to sign top o line talent and began making the team better. D was not great whichbis not surprising because there was not a lot of talent on the d side of the line
harge57 said:
Under sherm we would also end up with gaping talent holes at certain positions, especially along the defense.
After the Fran years A&M was not a top destination and the talent level that was here was mediocre.
Sherman was able to sign top o line talent and began making the team better. D was not great whichbis not surprising because there was not a lot of talent on the d side of the line
10:03p, 4/5/24
In reply to Sterling82
The Achilles heel of 2011 was the schedule. Go look at who we lost to and where they ended up. For the most part, we lost very close games against teams that all finished in the top 15-20. Ironically, a lot of people wanted him gone for that, but a lot of those same people were insisting that Jimbo was soooo close when he went 5-7 because he also lost a bunch of close games against some good teams.
Sterling82 said:
I agree, Sherman was likely the best coach we've had this century this side of RC. The Achilles heel in 2011 was lack of conditioning in my mind but also think game management, especially against tu, was suspect. For those that discount his ability to recruit and develop an OL, you're ignoring what he did as an assistant to RC. We always had good OLs when he was here.
The Achilles heel of 2011 was the schedule. Go look at who we lost to and where they ended up. For the most part, we lost very close games against teams that all finished in the top 15-20. Ironically, a lot of people wanted him gone for that, but a lot of those same people were insisting that Jimbo was soooo close when he went 5-7 because he also lost a bunch of close games against some good teams.
10:20p, 4/5/24
Mike Sherman recruited great offensive linemen and developed them, but his roster development on defense was mediocre. Also, he was fired for his inability to make in-game adjustments to win close games. Jimbo Fisher's SEC record is 27-21 (0.5625), which is slightly higher than Kevin Sumlin's SEC record of 25-23 (0.521). Sumlin was fired for his inability to win SEC home games, and Jimbo was fired for his inability to win road games.
Jimbo Fisher went 16-6 (0.727) in SEC home games, including 10-5 (0.667) against SEC West teams. In contrast, Kevin Sumlin went 8-14 (0.364) in SEC home games. Even worse, he went a putrid 3-12 (0.200) in home games against SEC West teams, including a 7-game losing streak at the end of his tenure.
However, Jimbo Fisher went 7-14 (0.333) in true SEC road games. Also, he ended his tenure with 9 consecutive road losses, including 8 consecutive SEC road losses. Even worse, he went a putrid 3-11 (0.214) in road games against SEC West teams, including a 6-game losing streak at the end of his tenure. In contrast, Kevin Sumlin went 13-9 (0.591) in true SEC road games, including 9-8 (0.529) against SEC West teams.
Jimbo Fisher went 16-6 (0.727) in SEC home games, including 10-5 (0.667) against SEC West teams. In contrast, Kevin Sumlin went 8-14 (0.364) in SEC home games. Even worse, he went a putrid 3-12 (0.200) in home games against SEC West teams, including a 7-game losing streak at the end of his tenure.
However, Jimbo Fisher went 7-14 (0.333) in true SEC road games. Also, he ended his tenure with 9 consecutive road losses, including 8 consecutive SEC road losses. Even worse, he went a putrid 3-11 (0.214) in road games against SEC West teams, including a 6-game losing streak at the end of his tenure. In contrast, Kevin Sumlin went 13-9 (0.591) in true SEC road games, including 9-8 (0.529) against SEC West teams.
10:21p, 4/5/24
In reply to AgDad121619
Sherman inherited a ****ty program from Fran. Sumlin inherited an offense made up of future first round draft picks at almost every position and an experienced defense full of upperclassmen.
Sherman's 6-7 big 12 team had a much harder schedule than 2012. In 2011 we played 5 teams that finished with 10+ wins, OU, OSU, Arkansas, KSU, and Baylor. tu and Missouri both finished with 8 wins. In 2011, the only great teams we played were Florida, Bama, and LSU. MSU finished with 8 wins, but Auburn, Arkansas, and Ole Miss all had losing seasons. We also played 2 FCS teams because of scheduling. It was not the gauntlet it was made out to be after Petrino got fired and Chizik lost Cam. Sherman could have slept his way to the same record.
And Sumlin was never even close to repeating that season. As Sherman's experienced talent left, Sumlin couldn't make up for it. He could recruit stars, but he couldn't develop and couldn't game manage. Hell, he couldn't even locker room manage.
Sherman was absolutely a better head coach considering where the team was when he got here versus what he left and the same for Sumlin.
AgDad121619 said:sherman was 9-16 in the big 12 if you remove his one 6-2 season and 15-18 if you include his greatest season. He was a good offensive talent analyzer but he was an average HC at best. It was time to move on from Sumlin but it is asinine to say Sherman was a better HC. Sumlin took Sherman's 6-7 Big 12 team with an NFL QB to 11-2 in the SEC with a fish QB. The 2011 season was one of the worst wastes of talent of any team since 1988.Divining Rod said:AgDad121619 said:
The mental gymnastics folks go through to try to say Sherman was better than Sumlin is bizarre. Sherman was 25-25 against big 12 competition - Sumlin was 51-26 against sec. How can you make the statement he was best coach in the 21st century with a straight face?
Sumlin was 17-19 in SEC after that frst year (6-2) with Johnny and a team Sherman built. His teams got progressively worse despite the early momentum.
Sherman took over a team in disarray and improved it every year (yes, even his last year team was better than 2010, but lost a lot of close games late).
I'm glad to see Sherman getting hus due here- I always maintained he was a good program builder. His weakness though was in-game management, no doubt.
What he did with Tech though was glorious! Leach had our number bad, and Sherman completely dominated their attack his last three years, going 2-0 in Lubbock with a 22 pt win at Tech in Leach's last yr (2009), an 18 pt win at Kyle in 2010 and a 5 pt win in Lunnock in 2011.
Also, Arkansas showed how far we came. in 2009 (start of series) Ark dominated 47-19 and Sherm said hiw we needed to get bigger and tougher to match up w SEC caliber. in 2010 we lost 24-17 in a competitive game. Next yr iur 14th ranked team lost to their 18th 42-38 in a game we dominated in the first half. again poor game mgmt in 2nd half. But the transformation of the team was apparent and the next yr under Sumlin we crushed them at Kyle 58-10.
Sherman inherited a ****ty program from Fran. Sumlin inherited an offense made up of future first round draft picks at almost every position and an experienced defense full of upperclassmen.
Sherman's 6-7 big 12 team had a much harder schedule than 2012. In 2011 we played 5 teams that finished with 10+ wins, OU, OSU, Arkansas, KSU, and Baylor. tu and Missouri both finished with 8 wins. In 2011, the only great teams we played were Florida, Bama, and LSU. MSU finished with 8 wins, but Auburn, Arkansas, and Ole Miss all had losing seasons. We also played 2 FCS teams because of scheduling. It was not the gauntlet it was made out to be after Petrino got fired and Chizik lost Cam. Sherman could have slept his way to the same record.
And Sumlin was never even close to repeating that season. As Sherman's experienced talent left, Sumlin couldn't make up for it. He could recruit stars, but he couldn't develop and couldn't game manage. Hell, he couldn't even locker room manage.
Sherman was absolutely a better head coach considering where the team was when he got here versus what he left and the same for Sumlin.
8:40a, 4/6/24
Sherman's play calling always seemed like an effort to maintain a run/pass balance. But sometimes you don't need balance to put a team away. Last season Michigan (with a good QB) didn't throw a single pass in the 2nd half at Penn State.
In 2011, we had several games where, late in the 2nd quarter, Sherman would go 12 personnel with QB under center for an entire possession and give the ball to Gray or C-Mike over and over, and we would score in about 6-7 plays. Just a physical, running possession that basically told the other team "this one's over before halftime."
All he had to do was rotate TEs and RBs in the 2nd half and physically beat up the other team while keeping the clock moving. But, of course, he would come out in the 3rd quarter running his shotgun spread scheme. A couple of 3 and outs later, it was a game again because our defense was only in good enough shape to play a half.
There's no telling how good Sherman's record could have been or how long he would have been the HC if not for 2nd half play calling and conditioning. 2 things that aren't hard to fix.
I do believe he was a good man - the kind of person we would want representing our school. I want to believe we have that now with Elko.
In 2011, we had several games where, late in the 2nd quarter, Sherman would go 12 personnel with QB under center for an entire possession and give the ball to Gray or C-Mike over and over, and we would score in about 6-7 plays. Just a physical, running possession that basically told the other team "this one's over before halftime."
All he had to do was rotate TEs and RBs in the 2nd half and physically beat up the other team while keeping the clock moving. But, of course, he would come out in the 3rd quarter running his shotgun spread scheme. A couple of 3 and outs later, it was a game again because our defense was only in good enough shape to play a half.
There's no telling how good Sherman's record could have been or how long he would have been the HC if not for 2nd half play calling and conditioning. 2 things that aren't hard to fix.
I do believe he was a good man - the kind of person we would want representing our school. I want to believe we have that now with Elko.
9:00a, 4/6/24
In reply to Iraq2xVeteran
Sumlin is the only coach we have had who was successful on the road against the top competition - which made his home record even more of a head scratcher. He would be at the top of our coaching list if he had been .750 at home like he should have been. Even in '12, both losses were at Kyle.Iraq2xVeteran said:
Mike Sherman recruited great offensive linemen and developed them, but his roster development on defense was mediocre. Also, he was fired for his inability to make in-game adjustments to finish close games. Jimbo Fisher's SEC record is 27-21 (0.5625), which is slightly higher than Kevin Sumlin's 25-23 (0.521). Sumlin was fired for his inability to win SEC home games, and Jimbo was fired for his inability to win road games.
Jimbo Fisher went 16-6 (0.727) in SEC home games, including 10-5 (0.667) against SEC West teams. In contrast, Kevin Sumlin went 8-14 (0.571) in SEC home games. Even worse, he went a putrid 3-12 (0.200) in home games against SEC West teams, including a 7-game losing streak at the end of his tenure.
However, Jimbo Fisher went 7-14 (0.333) in true SEC road games. Also, he ended his tenure with 9 consecutive road losses, including 8 consecutive SEC road losses. Even worse, he went a putrid 3-11 (0.214) in road games against SEC West teams, including a 6-game losing streak at the end of his tenure. In contrast, Kevin Sumlin went 13-9 (0.591) in true SEC road games, including 9-8 (0.529) against SEC West teams.
9:49a, 4/6/24
In reply to aeon-ag
Bill did what he was told to do.
Same song, previous verse.
The orders, (for football), came from above.
Same song, previous verse.
The orders, (for football), came from above.
"Gimme a diablo sandwhich and a dr. pepper...to go"
9:14a, 4/8/24
I used to complain about Sherman blowing leads in big games until we hired a man who couldn't get a lead in a big game.
5:33p, 4/9/24
Sherman earned a 5th year. He built the Ferrari and never got to drive it.
When Sherman got here there were 3 OL on Scholarship... THREE!!!!!
I don't understand why Sherman did not get more credit for what he did. He rebuilt this thing from ashes.
Those of you who rip his 4th year. How do you manage a QB who was a rockstar, but now is not a rockstar? JJ was incredible, but his surgery ruined his career. That season was a disaster, but not all his fault.
When Sherman got here there were 3 OL on Scholarship... THREE!!!!!
I don't understand why Sherman did not get more credit for what he did. He rebuilt this thing from ashes.
Those of you who rip his 4th year. How do you manage a QB who was a rockstar, but now is not a rockstar? JJ was incredible, but his surgery ruined his career. That season was a disaster, but not all his fault.
7:33p, 4/9/24
In reply to oldschool87
that was 2010 - 2011 was all Tannehilloldschool87 said:
Sherman earned a 5th year. He built the Ferrari and never got to drive it.
When Sherman got here there were 3 OL on Scholarship... THREE!!!!!
I don't understand why Sherman did not get more credit for what he did. He rebuilt this thing from ashes.
Those of you who rip his 4th year. How do you manage a QB who was a rockstar, but now is not a rockstar? JJ was incredible, but his surgery ruined his career. That season was a disaster, but not all his fault.
10:45p, 4/9/24
In reply to NewEra2023
That was Fran in 2006 that didn't run Lane at the goal line against OU.
4:35p, 4/11/24
We should have given Sherman one more year. He'd still be here if we had. The way we let him go was low class.
Jackie Sherrill is still the best Head Coach in A&M history.
Jackie Sherrill is still the best Head Coach in A&M history.
5:16p, 4/11/24
In reply to Bryanisbest
He showed zero sign of adjusting his play calling or approach. He, like Jimbo, was always reactive. You cant blow six double digit halftime leads and keep your job, not with that much talent on the roster. Just like Jimbo lost 10 straight road games (or however many) and numerous other one score games. His play calling and game management against Arkansas and Texas were the worst I have ever seen for an A&M coach and were fireable on their own. In the NFL either of those games gets you a moving box.Bryanisbest said:
We should have given Sherman one more year. He'd still be here if we had. The way we let him go was low class.
Jackie Sherrill is still the best Head Coach in A&M history.
7:25p, 4/11/24
The answer to the question posted is simple. Yes.
In other breaking revelations, the cause for the warming planet is...the sun.
In other breaking revelations, the cause for the warming planet is...the sun.
ordordordordord
9:29a, 4/24/24
In reply to Divining Rod
. Good OL wanted to play for him. Recruiting DL was a problemDivining Rod said:
Yep, it wasn't about landing the top recruits. That great OL was made up of four 4-stars (Matthews, Joekel, Lewis, Ogbuehi) and a 2 star (Harrison, who ended up being drafted in the 5th round). He was great at identifying talent and developing it. As said.
11:50p, 4/24/24
If someone had told me in 2011 that in 2024 multiple posters would be posting on texags that Sherman was the best HC of the century, I most likely would have leapt off a bridge.