There was a recent HBO show dedicated to PTSD and they discussed stories all the way back to the Civil War. That show got me wondering. I have been interested in ancient times for some while now. Though I haven't read a whole lot, I am familiar with ancient civilizations such as the Greeks, Rome, Carthage, the Jews migration to Israel, The Crusades, etc. In these times, it was common to see entire town/cities wiped out. Every last man, woman, and child slaughtered. And they were slaughtered, not by rifles or bombs, but up close and personal with swords. You also have cases of gladiators being forced to fight to the death. Its hard to imagine now that people actually enjoyed watching that.

Yet I haven't seen any testimonials of soldiers suffering from what we now call PTSD back in ancient times. Not that they don't exist, but I'm just not familiar with any. This has got me wondering if PTSD is a recent phenomena (by recent, I mean the age of gunpowder). If so, then why is that? Is it because death and slaughter was that much commonplace back then?

What can be done now to minimize the PTSD among out troops today?

I'm sure it was present back then, but not recognized or given a different name.

On a very visceral level, it is not natural to see another human being slaughtered in front of you, and when the high and excitement of combat go away, I think most people feel at least some effect.

aTmAg
I posted this reply on the History forum also just in case there are people who are interested, but don't normally check out both forums.
My apologies up front because this is kinda long. I am an active duty Combat Engineer in the Army. In case you don't know what a Combat Engineer does, we do route clearance missions, and are trained to use explosives. I have been on 5 major deployments since 2001. In 3 days, it will mark 20 months since I returned from my last deployment in 2009. This 20 month period is the longest period of time that I have not been deployed since 2001. The only reason I am not currently deployed is because they are still evaluating how I am responding to the most recent psych meds that I have been prescribed to help control my PTSD.

PTSD has been around for centuries. One of the first descriptions of PTSD was made by the Greek historian Herodotus. In 490 BC, he described an Athenian soldier who suffered no injury from war but became permanently blind after witnessing the death of a fellow Soldier, during the Battle of Marathon.
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quote: I don't have numbers with me or anyway to prove it right now, but it is my understanding that an unusually high portion of those reporting PTSD issues after WWII were from Urban areas while those living in rural areas were under-represented.
You then replied: Perhaps this has more to do with the fact that people in rural areas typically grew up hunting a lot. So they are used to shooting, gutting, etc. animals. By the time they are adults, the stigma with that is gone.
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Alvin York suffered from PTSD for years after WWI; Likewise, Audie Murphy suffered from PTSD for years after WWII. They both grew up in rural areas and hunted their whole life, so that debunks the whole grew up shooting, gutting animals theory to some degree. Or, at least, it does to me. Neither one of these Medal of Honor Recipients was ever officially diagnosed with PTSD, but you can see the signs when you read about their post war years.

I grew up in a rural area southwest of Houston along the coast and the first time my Dad took me hunting, I was 4 years old. From the age of 4 until after I graduated from college, I was an avid hunter. No amount of shooting, gutting animals truly prepares somebody for being in combat, especially the type of combat that today's warriors face. The wildlife isn't trying to shoot you or blow you up. That makes a Hell of a difference. Growing up shooting animals only gets you used to the sound of gun-fire, the site of blood, and generally improves your marksmanship. No matter how much hunting or shooting you have done in your lifetime, if you spend enough time in high-stress combat situations, you are at risk of eventually getting PTSD!

In my opinion, one of the biggest reason that our warrior Fathers, Uncles, Grandfathers, Great-Grandfathers, etc had less PTSD after their combat experiences is the fact that they never sought any kind of treatment from psychiatrists, psychologists, or other types of counselors because it JUST WASN'T DONE back then. My Korean War Combat Veteran Dad personally thought that those kinds of doctors were pretty much the same as witch doctors, and he would have never even entertained the notion of going to one for counseling.

Based on the advances in technologies over the years, modern warriors end up spending a significantly higher percentage of their "war-time experiences" in close proximity to where the combat actually happens; where you have to be hyper-vigilant and have your head on a swivel to look for danger that can suddenly come from anywhere. Warriors from ancient civilizations, on the other hand, had to spend great periods of time just getting to the place where their "war-time experiences" were going to take place.




AGGIE12B
JC '88
If you value the Freedom and Liberties you have in your life, be sure to Thank a Veteran everyday!

Everyone has some sort of PTSD, whether you were on a FOB, large base, or constantly on convoys.

After returning from OIF 1 in 2004, any loud noise (door slamming, dropping of a heavy object) would make me jittery and nervous, and I had to very deliberately avoid trying to drive in the center lane on the highway.

After returning from OIF 05-07 in 2006, I just wanted to sleep and have it be over when I woke up. I was also a bit numb and despondent after hearing casualty figures briefed every day like they were just numbers.

Not sure how PSTD from this OND deployment will manifest.

In reply to aTmAg

aTmAg said:

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There was a recent HBO show dedicated to PTSD and they discussed stories all the way back to the Civil War. That show got me wondering. I have been interested in ancient times for some while now. Though I haven't read a whole lot, I am familiar with ancient civilizations such as the Greeks, Rome, Carthage, the Jews migration to Israel, The Crusades, etc. In these times, it was common to see entire town/cities wiped out. Every last man, woman, and child slaughtered. And they were slaughtered, not by rifles or bombs, but up close and personal with swords. You also have cases of gladiators being forced to fight to the death. Its hard to imagine now that people actually enjoyed watching that.

Yet I haven't seen any testimonials of soldiers suffering from what we now call PTSD back in ancient times. Not that they don't exist, but I'm just not familiar with any. This has got me wondering if PTSD is a recent phenomena (by recent, I mean the age of gunpowder). If so, then why is that? Is it because death and slaughter was that much commonplace back then?

What can be done now to minimize the PTSD among out troops today?

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"What can be done now to minimize the PTSD among our troops today?"

A lot more funding to contract out counselors to provide therapy for our troops. There is no such thing as PTSD prevention because if you go through a traumatic experience, you absorb it and will impact you some how. Some people are handle it well and some people don't handle it well....at all. It's a sliding scale.

And believe it or not, you don't have to physically be at the location of the traumatic event to get symptoms of PTSD. DSM-5-TR states that you could be exposed to death in the following ways:

• Direct exposure
• Witnessing the trauma
• Learning that the trauma happened to a close relative or close friend
• Indirect exposure to aversive details of the trauma, usually in the course of professional duties (e.g., first responders, medics)

So when we get calls about friends killing themselves, or buddies who died on a mission or training event, it leaves a mark. You get so caught off guard that it stings. That's a form of PTSD that a lot of people don't know about or don't believe in. But its real.

My father and my uncles' generation was the World War II generation, mine was the Vietnam generation. If any of those in the World War II group suffered from PTSD, it never manifested itself in my presence. I know the term was never used when I was growing up, not even sure when the term was phrased. Most of the men I knew, and worked with, had seen serious combat, most had been awarded Purple Hearts, there were eight bronze stars (that I know of, and I didn't find out about any of them until after they died). I guess I knew 30 to 40 World War II vets pretty well. None of them talked much about the war. I cannot imagine that some of them didn't have something going on below the surface, though I never saw it, nor did any of their kids (my friends) ever mention anything they witnessed with their dad.

After my dad died, I contacted some of the Marines he had served with. Of the platoon he landed with on Tarawa, 6 survived the war. I corresponded with, or spoke on the phone with all of them, and I met one in person. I also was in contact with several Marines that joined his company after Tarawa, replacement troops. They were in Hawaii after Tarawa and before Saipan, and two of them told me how those men who had fought on Tarawa would have terrible nightmares, screaming themselves awake during the night. Both of those guys had, at that time, not yet seen combat and said how frightening it was to think about what it was going to be like if it affected these men like that.

I did know one Vietnam Vet that suffered from having served. A group of five or six of us were talking one day, in his parents' yard out in the country. Suddenly he just took off running, jumped over a barbed wire fence (one hand on the top wire and flung himself over it), and ran off into the trees. I didn't know what happened, or what to do. His brother went after him. Turns out, he had similar episodes somewhat often. He had not been back from Vietnam very long when this happened.

I know we need to do whatever needs to be done to help those who have issues from their time in the military.

I really don't think much can be done to prevent PTSD. It is my opinion that Iraq and Afghanistan have very much worn down the army. The Optempo can be stressful. For example, I PCSed to Alabama and trained for and deployed to Iraq. Upon return I PCSed to Ft Leavenworth to attend the Combined General Staff College for a year. Then I PCSed to Ft Campbell, KYto train for and deploy to Afghanistan. Upon return from the deployment, I PCSed to Ft Riley, KS to retire.

I can only speak about the army. We need to do a better job in regard to:

- Evaluating soldiers for PTSD.
- How the command treats and supports the soldiers.
- More effective therapists. Many soldiers and veterans claim that the therapists are not really helping them.
- The army should have a comprehensive treatment plan.

Only way to avoid PTSD is to not have your buddies die. Bottom line it is a form of survivors guilt.

I think the age of gunpowder has upped the ante on cases too with all the chaos associated with firearms, especially artillery and explosives.

In reply to OldArmyCT

OldArmyCT said:

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PTSD is hard to diagnose, harder to treat. The VA has awarded way too many people disability money for PTSD who were clerks and cooks in Vietnam while I know vets who actually were shot at receiving nothing. I know for a fact I can find a shrink who will give me a PTSD diagnosis but for some reason I don't think I have a problem.

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I ask people if they have:
- Racing thoughts.
- Severe guilt or egrets.
- Severe depression.
- Severe anxiety.
- Insomnia.
- Suicidal ideations.

I have written a PTSD healing book several years ago to help veterans and civilians. It is cognitive behavior therapy based.

In reply to aTmAg Eliminate war would be a first step. Is that practical...perhaps not. There is lots of money to made by it though.