Yesterday the wife and I completed our CHL renewal class at Central Texas Gun Works. The class was very good and much more through than our original class. Shooting portion was handled very well and the instructors did an excellent job of maintaining safety and helping out when students needed it. All in all, I'd recommend them.

What I didn't like was the hard sale they put on us to join Texas Law Shield. This may be a good service and I'd be surprised if this is the first time it's been mentioned and discussed on the OB. It, like other insurance-like products have a place an ultimately it's up to the individual to determine if the service is for them. I don't buy extended warranties at Best Buy or extra coverage on tires at Discount Tire because I don't think I will get my money's worth out of those deals. Obviously, I didn't sign up for TLS yesterday.
Back to my complaint - they did a very good job of scaring all the new CHL holders into thinking that if they do use their weapon in self defense that they will be facing tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees both on the civil and criminal side. However, if you sign up for TLS, you don't have to worry about all those lawyer costs. My wife said in the car on the way home "I find it very disturbing to know that if I shoot someone that's breaking into our home, I will be arrested and then have to spend lots of money dealing with that." This infuriated me! I want her to feel confident knowing that she is completely entitled to defend herself wherever she may be, especially in our home. What the salesman said shook that confidence. They made no mention of the Castle Doctrine during this 20 minute pitch to the captive audience.

My understanding is that, in the State of Texas, the Castle Doctrine (SB 378) protects you from criminal prosecution and/or civil suits if you injure or kill someone that was a) breaking into your home, car or business while you are there and b) if you defend yourself from someone who is attempting to kidnap, murder, sexually assault or rob you - regardless of the location. The law seems pretty clearly written and I'm having a hard time finding the gap where TLS would be handy. The basic premise they were pushing was that if you use your weapon in self defense, you will be arrested and, regardless of if you were in the right, the lawyer fees will be $10-20K, minimum.

So what's the OB's take on all of this? I would have no problem with someone from TLS setting up a table at a gun show and selling their wares, but this was a little different. It was during the CHL class and the guy was an employee of Central Texas Gun Works. He muddied the water and I think had a lot of people confused as to the ramifications if you were to use a weapon in self defense. Anyway, I'll enjoy seeing where this thread goes.

getting upsold stuff sucks.

I am not a lawyer and i am not sure if this is correct, but I thought that this was the law in texas: if you are not found criminally liable for the shooting, you cannot be subject to a civil suit for the shooting.

OB please correct me if am wrong.

quote:

---

I'd be surprised if this is the first time it's been mentioned and discussed on the OB.

---

It's not. Somebody mentioned it/asked about it/tried pimping it, and believe the overwhelming response was passing on it.

quote:

---

I don't buy extended warranties at Best Buy or extra coverage on tires at Discount Tire because I don't think I will get my money's worth out of those deals.

---

F Best Buy. Working in/around/near construction, Discount Tire has lost money on me with those.

I would actually complain about the upselling to a captive audience thing. I know the topic is not on the CHL curriculum, and thus you shouldn't be solicited during classtime. Afterwards, once you're free to go, if they want to provide the info as a "complementary service" that'd be okay. During the 8 hours, there's no place for it.

I'd complain to the establishment, and perhaps their licensing body (DPS?)

Same thing happened to me during my class. Scared the living **** out of me until I thought through it.

I don't know the legal ramifications of shooting someone in your house that is breaking in, buy if I had to use it outside of my house, it wouldn't surprise me the cost of lawyers to defend myself.

My thought on that is I'd rather be poor from paying my lawyer than dead. I can find a way to pay someone, but I can't fin a way to rise from the grave.

quote:

---

I am not a lawyer and i am not sure if this is correct, but I thought that this was the law in texas: if you are not found criminally liable for the shooting, you cannot be subject to a civil suit for the shooting.

---

Incorrect. Chapter 9 of the Penal Code specifically says that you may still be civilly liable.

The issue is the castle doctrine is an affirmative defense to prosecution. If you get an overzealous prosecutor, they can take the case to a grand jury and eventually to trial. In that case, the burden of proof is on the defense. In a case such as that, TLS would probably be worthwhile.

Regarding being sued civilly, whomever you shot (or their family) can still sue you. It's up to you to hire an attorney to have the suit dismissed.

Overall, I think TLS isn't worth the money. I think it's a better idea to have a good attorney to contact or on retainer in case you ever do need to shoot.

Exactly, tamu2009. If and when I need an attorney to defend me because I successfully saved my own life, I'll deal with it. I have several attorney friends that will pick up the phone anytime I call, so no worries finding a good attorney.

One instance I can think of that clearly isn't covered in SB 378 is the use of deadly force to prevent a theft or to recover stolen property immediately after theft. It also doesn't seem to cover you if you use your weapon to save someone else from sexual assault, robbery, murder or kidnapping. So, as long as you use your weapon to defend yourself in a situation where your life is in danger then you should be safe from criminal and civil liability, right?

i'm not defending the insurance aspect but keep this in mind - you can be arrested and charged and have to hire a lawyer to defend you or you can be sued and have to hire a lawyer to defend you even if the law is on your side and it turns out you were right. thats not unique to CHL/Castle doctrine cases, it's applicable in all areas of law.

I hear you aggiesq - and I assume by your user name that you know what you are talking about. Case in point - George Zimmerman.

Of course, there would need to be a prosecutor that is willing to file charges on someone in a case of clear cut self defense. Any ambulance chaser can and will file suit against you in civil court. So, I guess the question in regard to TLS is if you are willing to take the risk of paying out of pocket for an attorney if you have to use your weapon in self defense. I am.
I am also convinced (after yesterday's class) that I'm not saying a damn word until my attorney gets to me. My original CHL instructor had told us to make the 911 call, tell them you were afraid for your life, and repeat that and only that when the police show up. After yesterday, I'm thinking its smarter to call 911 and let them know you need officers and paramedics because someone has been shot, and end the conversation there. The next call is to your attorney.

[This message has been edited by D&C 2002 (edited 4/23/2012 9:18p).]

I agree dc. And I would suggest that applies to almost all interactions with the cops if there's ever a chance no mattr how remote that you could be a target of criminal charges.

A few points...

1) If you ever have to use force, deadly or not, to defend yourself, you are going to want/need an attorney.

2) Chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code provides all the information you need to know what your rights to self defense are.

3) Even if you go to trial, you only need a preponderance of evidence to enter your affirmative defense claim. Then it is upon the prosecution to prove you wrong beyond a reasonable doubt.

4) If you are found to be justified in any use of force in defense of person under Chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code you are immune from any and all civil liability.

quote:

---

CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODETITLE 4. LIABILITY IN TORTCHAPTER 83. USE OF DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON

Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.

Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 235, Sec. 2, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.Amended by: Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1, Sec. 4, eff. September 1, 2007.

---

Non deadly force should not be in play in these decisions. If you ever have the need to draw deadly force should be the only option.

I took my renewal class this past Saturday and got the same exact sell, identical circumstances just a different range. It was my second time with this instructor (who I think is excellent btw), but last time he did not allow the pitch on the Texas Law Shield. I ended up opting for it, for one year, to buy some time to explore other options and research the need. I almost rejected the sales pitch purely because it was to a captive audience and the attorney that traveled from San Antonio oversold it with too much drama. Just say your piece and move on.

It is just like any insurance. If you ever need it then what you paid up to that point is a bargain deal, but you also might go the rest of your life paying in and never needing it.

Our seller said they have 20,000 clients and in 4 years have become involved with 22 cases. At $100 per client per year they are taking in a cool $2 million annually.

I wonder what kind of commission is paid to the class organizers to allow the presentation of this product ? that is part of my issue with how it is done..........

The TLS sales pitch was my only problem with taking the CHL class with Dallas Concealed Carry. They definitely used the scare tactic to try to get us to buy.

I didn't opt for the coverage.

The guy that gave us the pitch on Sunday introduced himself as the Sales Manager for Central Texas Gun Works. He told the story of how he was arrested after defending himself with a knife when he was a young college student. Although he was eventually found not guilty or the case was dropped (don't remember what happened) he still wracked up several thousand dollars in attorney fees and the case took over two years because he was only able to pay the attorney a little at a time. His message was that basically this event took two years of his young life away from him that he can never get back.
It was an interesting story and made an impact in terms of knowing the ramifications of using deadly force, and I think the story absolutely had a place in the class. But then using that story to push TLS during the class was where things went negative for me. He also said that he received no commission for anyone signing up and that legally he couldn't receive a commission for selling legal services. However, on another internet forum I found where a Texas CHL instructor posted the email that was sent to him from TLS offering $30/person for each student he got to sign up and the post was from 2011. Maybe the financial reward structure has changed? Maybe the sales manager doesn't directly receive a commission, but I think someone at Central Texas Gun Works is definitely getting something out of it.
I've heard several of you recommend Mike Cargill, the owner of CTGW, and my impression is he's a good guy (he didn't teach the class). My assumption after seeing that post on another forum is that Mike is receiving something like $30/ea when someone signs up for TLS in his store. I'd also assume that the sales manager who was pushing TLS also benefits monetarily in some form or fashion. Again, this is my assumption based on what I found on the internet and we all know that everything on the internet is true. But, I have a hard time believing that CTGW is pushing TLS with no reward.

[This message has been edited by D&C 2002 (edited 4/24/2012 11:55a).]

Our instructor was offering $50 gift cards if you signed up that day so I would assumed he is getting some form of kick back.

I don't have my CHL yet, but I've always heard that you should be prepared to lawyer up, most likely be prosecuted, and almost assuredly be sued whenever you shoot someone in self defense, whether in the street, in your yard, or even in your home. That tells me that the legal insurance coverage is probably the least of your concerns. I'd make sure you have a solid umbrella liability policy to make sure your assets are covered. (I'm not an insurance salesman btw). I think, not sure about this, but I think the umbrella policy may actually pay for your attorney. Insurance guys can chime in on this.

Something that concerns me, and this is a little off topic, is what happens if you shoot someone in self defense inside your home and you were drinking alcohol before you went to bed, or worse yet, actually having a drink when someone breaks in? Does that open you up further to legal and civil liability? If so, then the legal insurance may not be a bad idea for this crowd!

What are you saying Bluto - that we're all prone to drinking? You'd be right if that is in fact your point and you are very perceptive!

I looked into an umbrella policy a few months back and was a little disappointed in how limited the coverage was. However, I'm sure they come in all different shapes and sizes and there probably is one out there that would cover you if you look hard enough and are willing to pay enough.

My thinking is that alcohol should not be a factor if you are in your home unless you are drunk and start shooting through the door at the newspaper salesman. The castle doctrine ain't going to help you out of that one. It most certainly could be an issue if you are in your car.

As mentioned before, you most likely will be sued regardless of weather you had a few drinks in you or not, but the castle doctrine gives you the ammo to have the case dismissed assuming it meets the critera. Still have to hire an attorney to get that taken care of so it never goes to trial.

I got my umbrella policy before I started buying handguns and started keeping one on my nighstand. I've thought about reading into the coverage limitations with respect to firearms. What did you find out on the coverage limits?

Well the first thing I found was the umbrella would only provide liability coverage on your property/in your home. It's great if you have a pool or something like that to protect you from a liability stand point.

Negligence and criminal activity would be the first things that would cause your umbrella to fold, I think. I don't think the umbrella would provide any coverage for attorney fees in a criminal case, which is what you'd be dealing with IF you were arrested for defending your home with deadly force. That's a big if.

If a kid were to injure themselves with your gun because they found it on the nightstand, you would likely be charged with a crime because you left your gun loaded and in a location that was easily accessible by the kid. Again, don't expect your insurance agent to return your calls in this case because you are now open to criminal and civil (negligence) cases.

I'm not an insurance agent or a lawyer so I could be way off base on these assumptions.

It's my understanding that the umbrella policy is an extension of your homeowner's policy. I figure it doesn't do anything for your criminal case, but hope it protects you for the civil lawsuit you could face if shooting someone in self defense in your home. That's in my home, thus falling under the coverage, and there's no negligence on my end for simply defending myself. Even if there was, that's what the coverage is for.

On a side note, I only leave my handgun on the table at night. It stays in the safe during the day, or at least up on a high enough shelf that a 20 month old can't reach. If another kid comes over it goes into the safe. Once my 20 month old starts sleeping in a bed with no rails, I'lls start using the figerprint activiated safe in the bedside dresser drawer. Didn't want you to think I was a complete idiot.

My wife and I went through the same pitch yesterday at CTGW's CHL class. Mike taught most of the class, but Elmer (the Asian sales manager) came in to share his knife story and then to sell the class on TLS. I pre-empted my wife for the up-sell before we went it, but it still definitely had an effect on her. Her first comment walking out of the door to my truck was "What's the point of carrying if you're going to go to jail?"

Thanks, Aggietaco. I feel validated. I've been thinking all week about calling Mike and sharing my thoughts. However, he might not want to hear my advice on how he should be running his business.

Since you heard the knife story too, did you also feel like there was probably more to the story?

I took my CHL class last weekend and this was brought up as well. Our teacher didn't want to give a sale's pitch but a couple people insisted so he told us he has insurance through usconcealedcarry.com. It's something I'm thinking about pretty strongly.

As for the being arrested/sued for shooting somebody in bedroom, I think it's complete and utter BS. The victim will suffer much more than the criminal's families after such an ordeal. And while I trust a judge and prosecuter in criminal court, I do not trust a jury of my peers in civil court. I do plan on doing some research on the subject and mailing a letter to my representative containing my thoughts on it. I don' think it'll do much good, but it won't hurt and you never know until you try.

D&C - I also thought about turning around and going to talk to Mike after my wife made that comment, but on one hand, she's partially correct. There would be a whole lot of mess to put up with if you ever had to use (or even pull) your weapon.

Regarding the knife story, I'm not sure. I dug around on the net to see if I could find the news story, but couldn't find anything. Wierd that he was either in a car and got jumped by 7 guys or was in line and got drug outside and jumped by 7 guys. I also haven't heard of someone getting knocked out, woken up and beat more, knocked out again and then woken up with the capacity to hop up and stab someone.

our CHL instructor gave us the low down on TLS as well. You will almost certainly be apprehended if you use your firearm on someone regardless if you pull the trigger or not. Somebody, somewhere will convince the perp or his family to file a lawsuit.

the guys at TLS will handle pretty much any legal gun case if you are covered. a friend of mine shot a skunk that had sprayed him and his dog three times. sure enough, the cops showed up and wrote him a ticket. TLS got it dismissed with very little effort and zero dollars. W.ithout the coverage, youre looking at court costs, ticket cost, etc. at a minimum for legally using a firearm.

[This message has been edited by dfphotos (edited 4/27/2012 2:26p).]

I took my class from Mike, and he's one of the best instructors out there. He would be doing you a disservice by not presenting the reality - which is, if you kill someone, even in self-defense, you're not going to just go on like nothing happened. You will need a lawyer.

I didn't sign up for it, but I found it interesting, and as someone who started in sales, it wasn't a big deal. Also, it probably helps subsidize the cost of your class.

One other thing: Mike taught the entire class, and the TLS rep was no part of Mike's business at that time. Mike also sold holsters and other items during the class. Capitalism at its finest. If you don't like it, ask questions before you sign up, and don't go.

Macky,
I had no problem with presenting the reality of the situation if you use your firearm. They didn't do any while we were there but I don't think I'd have any issues with some equipment demonstrations as well. That is a pretty important thing to consider if you do decide to carry on your person on a regular basis.

I would have even been fine with a mention of TLS and other similar services and "If you'd like more information see us after class..." type of thing, but using a significant portion of the class time to pimp TLS just rubbed me the wrong way. We even got baited with a "if you sign up today you will get a guaranteed rate..." deal. Is was an infomercial for TLS.
I did talk to Mike before I signed us up but I would have never in a million years thought to ask "you aren't going to take up a significant chunk of our class time with that TLS stuff, are you?" I guess I'll know better next time and maybe others reading this will as well.

Oh, just to clarify - Mike didn't teach our class. I've seen many here recommend him and that was my primary reason for going to CTGW for our renewals. The prices were competitive but the general texags OB endorsement was my main factor in choosing them.

The instructor we had was very good. I was especially impressed at how well the crew worked the range. I felt safe even though I was in very close proximity to shooters with very little (apparent) experience. I have no issues with the actual instruction we received and felt I got what I paid for.

Took the CHL today at Tactical FA in Katy ($69), TLS also came in to sell their product...for $160 a yr (inc multi-state, based on what all they will do for you from a legal standpoint. Its a no brainer for the avg person that finds themselve in need of such representation, esp since they specialize in it.

I did find it odd it was a 45 min porton of the CHL class, but was still educational which is what the class is about.

So if you get no billed or true billed, they represent you with no further charges for their services.

[This message has been edited by bigfooticus (edited 4/27/2012 10:01p).]

I haven't read this whole thread, but thanks to the OP for the heads up on Texas Law Shield. We did our class today (I bought the livingsocial deal). It didn't sound too bad and wouldn't cost as much as I had expected. But we were wise to what was coming.
The pitch ran for about twenty minutes at around 5:40. It was inserted before all the official stuff was completed.

Mike Cargill was our instructor today. I have read many good reviews of him on these boards, and I agree that he is pretty good. My main complaint would be that he commits the powerpoint sin of reading right off a lot of the slides...but I can live with that.

I took my CHL renewal back in January and got the Tecas Law Shield pitch from a tall, thin semi-hot gal. I thought it over and signed up on line a day or so later. If you have any sort of incedent with a gun you call these guys and let them handle things.