The (New) Global Methodist Church - Page 11

TheRatt87

11:06a, 4/5/23

UTExan said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nearly-200-churches-sue-to-leave-liberal-united-methodist-body-and-keep-property-amid-split-over-sexuality/ar-AA19v1pZ?li=BBnbfcL

186 North Georgia UMC churches suing to leave, citing deception and obstruction from the leadership of the conference.

We are members of one of these 186 N GA UMC churches, but haven't attended since the disaffiliation process started dragging out.

This whole thing is such a joke, and is playing out exactly like current day politics. The traditional churches are spineless like the GOP, and keep expecting the progressive/liberal UMC leadership to act in good faith despite the UMC showing over and over again that they never will. The periodic disaffiliation email updates that our church sends out are nauseating.

A good friend at church is a retired judge and he believes that nothing will come of the lawsuit, principally because no judge is going to rule on such an issue but instead force it to arbitration/settlement.

My advice to these N GA churches - Disregard the "pause" edict, proceed with the disaffiliation process per Paragraph 2553, submit the results to the Conference if your congregation votes to disaffiliate, and then proceed to operate as a disaffiliated church (stop apportionments, remove UMC from your name, etc). Force the UMC to sue/take action to stop you. Take back your church.

aggieband 83

7:00p, 4/6/23

In reply to TheRatt87

This is exactly what our local church has done. We voted to disaffiliate, filled out the GMC application and have sent the application in. Our results have been sent to our district superintendent office & the Rio Texas conference office even though Rio Texas has not allowed any local churches to leave yet. There are 80 churches that have voted to disaffiliate so far. An additional 70 - 80 are preparing to vote but have not voted yet. I really want the Rio Texas Conference office to get their act together and acknowledge the churches that are ready to leave. Then the churches that vote to stay can continue on as UMC. This thing has drawn out long enough!

Aggie Band not the easiest but the Best.

SW AG80

8:58p, 4/6/23

General Conference for the Rio Conference meets sometime in June. At that time the UMC will ratify the disaffiliations and, hopefully, vote to allow us to leave.

I believe General Conference is the right term.

aggieband 83

9:52p, 4/6/23

In reply to SW AG80

Annual Conference was held in McAllen last summer. It was the poorest attended conference I have ever seen. There were many breakout sessions as part of conference. One session was about disaffiliation.

It was a shock to the Bishop and his cabinet members to see how many people opted to attend that session. The meeting room reserved for this session was entirely to small. Not enough seats had been set up. People were standing along the sides and back of the meeting room. The organizers of this meeting had absolutely no clue how serious churches were about leaving the Rio Texas Conference until that meeting. It scared the heck out of them.

All they saw were dollar signs leaving the conference. My personal opinion is, that's the reason they have been dragging their feet. They were hoping churches would not actually follow through with disaffiliation.

Aggie Band not the easiest but the Best.

UTExan

11:40a, 4/7/23

In reply to TheRatt87

TheRatt87 said:
UTExan said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nearly-200-churches-sue-to-leave-liberal-united-methodist-body-and-keep-property-amid-split-over-sexuality/ar-AA19v1pZ?li=BBnbfcL

186 North Georgia UMC churches suing to leave, citing deception and obstruction from the leadership of the conference.

We are members of one of these 186 N GA UMC churches, but haven't attended since the disaffiliation process started dragging out.

This whole thing is such a joke, and is playing out exactly like current day politics. The traditional churches are spineless like the GOP, and keep expecting the progressive/liberal UMC leadership to act in good faith despite the UMC showing over and over again that they never will. The periodic disaffiliation email updates that our church sends out are nauseating.

A good friend at church is a retired judge and he believes that nothing will come of the lawsuit, principally because no judge is going to rule on such an issue but instead force it to arbitration/settlement.

My advice to these N GA churches - Disregard the "pause" edict, proceed with the disaffiliation process per Paragraph 2553, submit the results to the Conference if your congregation votes to disaffiliate, and then proceed to operate as a disaffiliated church (stop apportionments, remove UMC from your name, etc). Force the UMC to sue/take action to stop you. Take back your church.

I know of churches that want to leave but are "stuck" in the lack of inertia of the UMC. FUMC Carrollton (GA) is apparently staying but lost a senior pastor who said his conscience wouldn't allow him to stay.

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

UTExan

11:47a, 4/7/23

And a Virginia church posted an open letter to disaffiliating churches on how to do it.
In short, 97% of the congregation voted to leave, went through the process and earmarked the assessed $562,000 to exit. The conference leadership stalled, so they walked away, having increased their worship attendance and will use that $562,000 to build up their new church.

https://juicyecumenism.com/2023/03/31/new-town-churchs-open-letter-to-united-methodists/

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

TheRatt87

6:26p, 4/7/23

In reply to UTExan

UTExan said:
And a Virginia church posted an open letter to disaffiliating churches on how to do it.
In short, 97% of the congregation voted to leave, went through the process and earmarked the assessed $562,000 to exit. The conference leadership stalled, so they walked away, having increased their worship attendance and will use that $562,000 to build up their new church.

https://juicyecumenism.com/2023/03/31/new-town-churchs-open-letter-to-united-methodists/

What a shocker. After removing pastors as payback for supporting traditional Methodist doctrine and shutting down disaffiliation in North GA over "misinformation", she takes over Virginia and does the same things.

Reinforces a long-held universal rule that my wife & I have - Never trust a woman with two/hyphenated last names.

etexDVM

11:35p, 4/10/23

We voted to leave UMC this fall. Saw the writing on the wall. Got out before the new bishop was installed. Thank God our pastor was on board with the separation.

aggieband 83

8:47p, 4/12/23

This post is intended for all to read; however, the information is aimed directly at my Brothers & Sisters in the Rio Texas Conference. As I have posted numerous times before, my church is part of a 2 point charge. Both churches in this charge have passed the disaffiliation votes. Both churches have applied to Global. Both churches have not been released from Rio Texas. We have been in a holding pattern because of Rio Texas wanting to wait until the special called conference in May and then MAYBE being released from the Rio Texas Conference during the up coming Annual Conference in June. Many other churches like ours are tired of waiting to see what MIGHT happen.

I just returned from another Zoom meeting. There were anywhere from 90 - 110 disafiliating church representatives listening. (The number of participants in the bottom corner of the screen kept changing. Not sure how many were dropping out and rejoining the meeting.) An attorney was also invited to attend the meeting because he is representing some churches to negotiate for their release from Rio Texas. He is not bringing a lawsuit against Rio Texas. He is negotiating. He has already spoken on behalf of his client churches to the Rio Texas office in San Antonio.

The recommendations he is giving his clients are.:
Do not wait for Annual Conference.
Once the disaffiliation vote is passed, notify the District & Conference office.
Pay only the 2023 apportionments from January-June, because June is the final month of Annual Conference.
Get the church deeds in the name of your Methodist Church (without the word United).
Do the same thing with your bank accounts.

The cost is $2500 per church. This money will be used to help individual churches to make the above name changes. If churches have already done the above name changes he will refund a portion of the money. The entire $2500 is refundable if he cannot reach a negotiation on the churches behalf.

He is already adding churches to his client list. He welcomes any questions y'all might have. The attorney's name is Curtis Kurhajec He works with Naman, Howell, Smith & Lee Law Firm in Austin, Texas. Phone number is (512) 479-0300. https://www.namanhowell.com/professionals/Curtis-J-Kurhajec#Experience

The larger his client list becomes, the more bargaining power he will have. My local church and the 2nd part of our joint charge have joined his client list. I like the fact that he is not filing a lawsuit against Rio Texas. He knows Rio Texas does not want a lawsuit either. I like that he is negotiating from strength in numbers. Pass this information on to whoever needs to read it. The larger the numbers become, the more powerful our negotiating strength becomes.

Aggie Band not the easiest but the Best.

UTExan

9:17p, 4/12/23

In reply to aggieband 83

If the bishop is heavy handed, write them a letter:
We quit. The building keys are under the doormat. You can reach us for business reasons at PO Box xxxx. We will be temporarily worshipping at X church on Sunday afternoons until we can secure a permanent building which is ours. Best wishes.

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

OldSchoolRdAg

8:26p, 4/13/23

My small/medium size Hill Country church (part of Rio Texas Conference) just voted to start the discernment process. We are late to the process because our pastor has continually said, "let's wait and see how it plays out in 2024". We finally had a vocal group push the Admin. Board to vote and it resulted in a close outcome to start discernment. We have a generally not well-informed membership as relates to disaffiliation. Even though I believe our congregation is more traditional/conservative in their beliefs and values, I currently think the 2/3 bar might be difficult to reach. We have to do a good job of educating people, but we will need to not push alternative denominations until they better understand the UMC issues.

Is there anyone who has gone through the discernment process who might be willing to share their experience with me. Particularly from a church in the Rio Texas Conference. I am on the Admin. Board and will be participating in leading this process.

UTExan

9:01p, 4/13/23

In reply to OldSchoolRdAg

You might contact John Lomperis, who wrote this article:
https://juicyecumenism.com/2023/04/12/it-may-happen-to-you-too-bishop-connie-shelton-shows-danger-of-staying-united-methodist/

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

HumpitPuryear

8:51a, 4/14/23

In reply to OldSchoolRdAg

OldSchoolRdAg said:
My small/medium size Hill Country church (part of Rio Texas Conference) just voted to start the discernment process. We are late to the process because our pastor has continually said, "let's wait and see how it plays out in 2024". We finally had a vocal group push the Admin. Board to vote and it resulted in a close outcome to start discernment. We have a generally not well-informed membership as relates to disaffiliation. Even though I believe our congregation is more traditional/conservative in their beliefs and values, I currently think the 2/3 bar might be difficult to reach. We have to do a good job of educating people, but we will need to not push alternative denominations until they better understand the UMC issues.

Is there anyone who has gone through the discernment process who might be willing to share their experience with me. Particularly from a church in the Rio Texas Conference. I am on the Admin. Board and will be participating in leading this process.

Small church also in Rio here. Your description matches us to a T. We had our first of 3 required conferences with our DS last night. Key takeaways
- We MUST go through the prescribed process and can't disaffiliate before 6 months. This of course means we miss the June conference. DS says not to worry, we can take all the time we want/need There is no deadline. Some of us are skeptical since the conference still must vote to approve a disaffiliation. We could be waiting for that until June 2024 if there's no special called conference in the interim.
- This is all about the LGBQ issue. Nothing else. This brought some muffled laughter and gasps from our group. Referred indirectly to GMC as pot-stirrers and that this whole ordeal is due to lots of mis-information. He quoted some numbers for churches that have voted to disaffiliate. I didn't write down the numbers but it seemed less than numbers I've heard from other sources.
- Special conference has been called for May 6 to deal with churches that have already been through the process and have voted to disaffiliate.

My biggest question is about the conference voting to approve/disapprove disaffiliation and timing. Seems to me the longer you wait the less likely you are to get out. He says there are about 20 churches that have already decided to disaffiliate. I presume that once the conference approves than those churches are out and would not be sending reps to the next conference. That would shift the conference representation towards the progressive side which I'm assuming is going to be less amenable to allowing disaffiliation, at least without some onerous concessions. Hoping someone with more knowledge of the process can shed some light on this.

I'm going to be keenly watching what happens in the special May conference to see how those early disaffiliating churches are dealt with.

Our discernment council has some very aggressive progressives on it and some very hard-headed conservatives. Similar situation with the congregation at large but I think the conservatives have the numbers if they will participate. Going to be some hard times ahead for our little church regardless of where we end up on the disaffiliation question.

The Chicken Ranch

10:45a, 4/14/23

In reply to HumpitPuryear

HumpitPuryear said:

- This is all about the LGBQ issue. Nothing else. This brought some muffled laughter and gasps from our group. Referred indirectly to GMC as pot-stirrers and that this whole ordeal is due to lots of mis-information. He quoted some numbers for churches that have voted to disaffiliate. I didn't write down the numbers but it seemed less than numbers I've heard from other sources.

You know that isn't accurate, right? Having seen this in the PCUSA, it started with this issue, but once the conservative voices dwindled, they ran rampant with any far left cause that you can think of. With us, it started with ordaining homosexuals. Now they have transgendered ordination, ministries that support BLM, defund the police, demanding access to abortion (reproductive justice), banning fossil fuels, supporting Palestinian terrorists killing Jews, fighting climate change, preaching social justice, etc. The PCUSA church we walked out of adopted a woke liturgy that had us confessing our racism each week, confessing our white privilege, and confessing our environmental damage caused by oil and gas. And this was at a south Texas church!

We joined an ECO Presbyterian church and it has been such a breath of fresh air. Things are normal again, at church. But the biggest change (that we didn't anticipate) was local control. And that's what your choice is really about.

Your choice isn't about LGBTQ ordination, it's about local control. The UMC will take the path that I illustrated above. It is the same path taken by the PCUSA and the ELCA Lutherans, and it is what you will get if you stay.

Choosing local control or not is really what you are choosing.

malenurse

10:55a, 4/14/23

In reply to The Chicken Ranch

I regret that I can only star your post once.

The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.

HumpitPuryear

11:16a, 4/14/23

In reply to The Chicken Ranch

The Chicken Ranch said:
HumpitPuryear said:

- This is all about the LGBQ issue. Nothing else. This brought some muffled laughter and gasps from our group. Referred indirectly to GMC as pot-stirrers and that this whole ordeal is due to lots of mis-information. He quoted some numbers for churches that have voted to disaffiliate. I didn't write down the numbers but it seemed less than numbers I've heard from other sources.

You know that isn't accurate, right? Having seen this in the PCUSA, it started with this issue, but once the conservative voices dwindled, they ran rampant with any far left cause that you can think of. With us, it started with ordaining homosexuals. Now they have transgendered ordination, ministries that support BLM, defund the police, demanding access to abortion (reproductive justice), banning fossil fuels, supporting Palestinian terrorists killing Jews, fighting climate change, preaching social justice, etc. The PCUSA church we walked out of adopted a woke liturgy that had us confessing our racism each week, confessing our white privilege, and confessing our environmental damage caused by oil and gas. And this was at a south Texas church!

We joined an ECO Presbyterian church and it has been such a breath of fresh air. Things are normal again, at church. But the biggest change (that we didn't anticipate) was local control. And that's what your choice is really about.

Your choice isn't about LGBTQ ordination, it's about local control. The UMC will take the path that I illustrated above. It is the same path taken by the PCUSA and the ELCA Lutherans, and it is what you will get if you stay.

Choosing local control or not is really what you are choosing.

Yes absolutely, I and several others completely understand this, thus my comment about the scoffing reactions in the room. I appreciate your insights into what happens after the progressives take over. This is my larger issue with remaining UMC. Gay clergy is a done deal despite what the rules say. Anyone doubting that is a fool. The DS wanted to imply that it wasn't settled in the UMC and Rio conference in particular and could go either way once it's taken up again (more muted, "yeah, right" from the room). We didn't challenge the DS much. It was our first meeting and I'm satisfied with letting our discernment committee do it's job for now.

MooreTrucker

12:13p, 4/14/23

In reply to HumpitPuryear

We got that "but no one knows for sure" from our sr pastor about both the changes in the UMC and whether the same changes would happen in the GMC.

powerbelly

12:14p, 4/14/23

In reply to The Chicken Ranch

The Chicken Ranch said:
HumpitPuryear said:

- This is all about the LGBQ issue. Nothing else. This brought some muffled laughter and gasps from our group. Referred indirectly to GMC as pot-stirrers and that this whole ordeal is due to lots of mis-information. He quoted some numbers for churches that have voted to disaffiliate. I didn't write down the numbers but it seemed less than numbers I've heard from other sources.

You know that isn't accurate, right? Having seen this in the PCUSA, it started with this issue, but once the conservative voices dwindled, they ran rampant with any far left cause that you can think of. With us, it started with ordaining homosexuals. Now they have transgendered ordination, ministries that support BLM, defund the police, demanding access to abortion (reproductive justice), banning fossil fuels, supporting Palestinian terrorists killing Jews, fighting climate change, preaching social justice, etc. The PCUSA church we walked out of adopted a woke liturgy that had us confessing our racism each week, confessing our white privilege, and confessing our environmental damage caused by oil and gas. And this was at a south Texas church!

We joined an ECO Presbyterian church and it has been such a breath of fresh air. Things are normal again, at church. But the biggest change (that we didn't anticipate) was local control. And that's what your choice is really about.

Your choice isn't about LGBTQ ordination, it's about local control. The UMC will take the path that I illustrated above. It is the same path taken by the PCUSA and the ELCA Lutherans, and it is what you will get if you stay.

Choosing local control or not is really what you are choosing.

Look no further than ELCA. They pioneered how to gut a traditional denomination and now are closer to a PAC than a church.

The Chicken Ranch

12:22p, 4/14/23

Thanks to all for the kind words.

UTExan

4:36p, 4/14/23

In reply to The Chicken Ranch

The UMC setup is a total con job for Methodists: local congregations own nothing because the conference owns the property. Yet the congregation is responsible for maintenance and upkeep. And the congregation has little say over who is assigned as pastor. That is up to the bishop. Yet congregations are supposed to pay both salaries + pension + medical PLUS about 10% of income as "apportionment". The UMC is solely by, for and about the benefit of the clergy while laity does the heavy lifting.

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

The Chicken Ranch

5:59p, 4/14/23

In reply to UTExan

PCUSA was the same, expect you got to call your pastor. Property is in trust with the church.

However, First Presbyterian in Houston sued and got the courts to clarify the strength of the trust clause in Texas. In Texas, the individual churches have more leverage than they think they do.

In the ECO and EPC Presbyterian, the churches have clear title. Isn't the GMC the same?

UTExan

7:36p, 4/14/23

In reply to The Chicken Ranch

I believe the GMC has each congregation controlling their property and their clergy.

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

OldSchoolRdAg

8:15p, 4/14/23

I am learning a great deal from reading many of your posts. Thank you. I have questions that maybe I can get some help with:
When we are ready to schedule our first church conference listening session, is it difficult to get on the DS's calendar?
Is it basically the DS's meeting and agenda for the meetings?
Do we have to inform the DS what we, the church members, also want included in the meeting?
When we are ready to include a representative from GMC or Independent to one of these sessions, do we have to ask him or get his approval?
I have a few GMC names who might come and talk, but does anyone have someone who can talk about going Independent? Also, a GMC rep from the Hill Country would be good if you know any?

This is just a start for me. Thanks

XpressAg09

8:41p, 4/14/23

In reply to UTExan

UTExan said:
I believe the GMC has each congregation controlling their property and their clergy.

Yes to property and, at very minimum, congregations have a lot more choice in clergy. Our GMC loves our two pastors and is actively hiring a third, and handling the matters internally…not asking for GMC to send someone.

MooreTrucker

9:13a, 4/15/23

In reply to OldSchoolRdAg

OldSchoolRdAg said:
I am learning a great deal from reading many of your posts. Thank you. I have questions that maybe I can get some help with:
When we are ready to schedule our first church conference listening session, is it difficult to get on the DS's calendar?
Is it basically the DS's meeting and agenda for the meetings?
Do we have to inform the DS what we, the church members, also want included in the meeting?
When we are ready to include a representative from GMC or Independent to one of these sessions, do we have to ask him or get his approval?
I have a few GMC names who might come and talk, but does anyone have someone who can talk about going Independent? Also, a GMC rep from the Hill Country would be good if you know any?

This is just a start for me. Thanks

In our case, the DS came and spoke and said "I have been told not to delve too deep into numbers, and only some questions", so yeah, NOT his agenda. Our sr pastor had the agenda and it was pretty obvious what it was.

And we never had anyone from GMC ever come to talk to us.

The Chicken Ranch

10:54a, 4/15/23

In reply to MooreTrucker

Of course not.

If anyone from the ECO or EPC had been allowed to ever come and speak at a PCUSA church in rural America, there wouldn't be any PCUSA churches.

UTExan

1:01p, 4/15/23

I am sure it has been mentioned, but 1st Methodist Bryan disaffiliated from the UMC this past January.

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

OldSchoolRdAg

4:12p, 4/15/23

We voted on March 28 to enter discernment. Just prior to that, our pastor was reassigned effective June to a church that decided not to go into discernment and will wait until after General Conference 2024 to evaluate again. So, our pastor is lame duck and has indicated he should not participate in discernment unless he is needed. He has indicated that the church members need to manage the whole process.

birddog7000

10:08p, 4/16/23

In reply to OldSchoolRdAg

OldSchoolRdAg said:
I am learning a great deal from reading many of your posts. Thank you. I have questions that maybe I can get some help with:
When we are ready to schedule our first church conference listening session, is it difficult to get on the DS's calendar? It isn't difficult, but they are very busy right now, so it might not be immediate. Our DS was pretty quick to schedule our meetings back in the early fall. Hopefully y'all hear something soon, if not ask for the meeting dates to be scheduled.

Is it basically the DS's meeting and agenda for the meetings? Yes, the DS will run the listening sessions. Because of this our church scheduled other meetings just for discussion about the issues and process. I believe this has been helpful.

Do we have to inform the DS what we, the church members, also want included in the meeting? No. Just use a different time to discuss among yourselves. By the time the meeting with the DS is done you will want to go home, and any discussion would be counterproductive.

When we are ready to include a representative from GMC or Independent to one of these sessions, do we have to ask him or get his approval? No, just reach out to them and ask them to meet with you.
I have a few GMC names who might come and talk, but does anyone have someone who can talk about going Independent? There is a list floating around, I think maybe Utopia is independent, but I'm shooting from the hip and might be wrong.

Also, a GMC rep from the Hill Country would be good if you know any? Not in the Hill Country, but if you call the Texas GMC contact they will get someone to your church.

This is just a start for me. Thanks

You can reach out to me if you would like. I'm active in our church's discernment process. Please let me know when you have my number and I'll take it down.

Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you during this time of discernment. Continually seek guidance and wisdom, and lead your congregation to do the same. I am confident that if your church will prayerfully discern together you will all move in the same direction together. God will work on all of you during this process, and this can be a great time of spiritual growth for you and your congregation if you seek it.

OldSchoolRdAg

1:13p, 4/17/23

birddog, I now have your number and will be reaching out. Thanks

XpressAg09

5:06p, 4/17/23

In reply to OldSchoolRdAg

Good luck with all this…our church is thriving now, post-disaffiliation, but discernment sucked.

SW AG80

5:34p, 4/17/23

Our church in San Antonio began "early voting" today. Pretty long line with the median age being around 78.
I do commend the Bishop for allowing the early voting. To me, it shows he is trying to do the right thing, even though it will facility the disaffiliation vote.

Max Stonetrail

12:27a, 4/18/23

In reply to The Chicken Ranch

The Chicken Ranch said:
HumpitPuryear said:

- This is all about the LGBQ issue. Nothing else. This brought some muffled laughter and gasps from our group. Referred indirectly to GMC as pot-stirrers and that this whole ordeal is due to lots of mis-information. He quoted some numbers for churches that have voted to disaffiliate. I didn't write down the numbers but it seemed less than numbers I've heard from other sources.

You know that isn't accurate, right? Having seen this in the PCUSA, it started with this issue, but once the conservative voices dwindled, they ran rampant with any far left cause that you can think of. With us, it started with ordaining homosexuals. Now they have transgendered ordination, ministries that support BLM, defund the police, demanding access to abortion (reproductive justice), banning fossil fuels, supporting Palestinian terrorists killing Jews, fighting climate change, preaching social justice, etc. The PCUSA church we walked out of adopted a woke liturgy that had us confessing our racism each week, confessing our white privilege, and confessing our environmental damage caused by oil and gas. And this was at a south Texas church!

We joined an ECO Presbyterian church and it has been such a breath of fresh air. Things are normal again, at church. But the biggest change (that we didn't anticipate) was local control. And that's what your choice is really about.

Your choice isn't about LGBTQ ordination, it's about local control. The UMC will take the path that I illustrated above. It is the same path taken by the PCUSA and the ELCA Lutherans, and it is what you will get if you stay.

Choosing local control or not is really what you are choosing.

This is spot on. For the Methodist Church, it is about who can define doctrine.

What should have happened: The people that wanted to change doctrine - i.e. have gay marriage, gay clergy, and also whatever liberal flavor of the month stance was popular, THEY should have left. The problem is they are weak, their conviction is weak, their backbone is weak, their support is weak and their POSITION is weak, especially when it comes to scripture, experience, tradition and reason. They had to infect something strong and destroy it from within. They were too weak to go it on their own.

What did happen: The strong left. Because they can. Because God is on their side and that is all the Power they need.

Romans 8:31

85aggie777

8:17a, 4/18/23

In reply to Max Stonetrail

Max Stonetrail said:

This is spot on. For the Methodist Church, it is about who can define doctrine.

What should have happened: The people that wanted to change doctrine - i.e. have gay marriage, gay clergy, and also whatever liberal flavor of the month stance was popular, THEY should have left. The problem is they are weak, their conviction is weak, their backbone is weak, their support is weak and their POSITION is weak, especially when it comes to scripture, experience, tradition and reason. They had to infect something strong and destroy it from within. They were too weak to go it on their own.

What did happen: The strong left. Because they can. Because God is on their side and that is all the Power they need.

Romans 8:31

VERY well said! It amazed me, starting 20 years ago when this all began creeping into the denomination, that people would knowingly enter as clergy when they had profound differences with the doctrine. In retrospect, though, it has become crystal clear that this is the "modus operandi" of the left to force their ideology in every established American institution. They have done it with government, academia, the judiciary, corporations and now churches. We try to escape it, but it relentlessly just keeps coming. I pray once the regular UMC ultimately fails, they will leave these newly formed Methodist churches alone, but I am not optimistic given the history.

SW AG80

6:55p, 4/23/23

Our Methodist Church is the 2 or 3 largest in San Antonio and thus one of the largest in the Rio Conference.

We voted today, 83-17, to disaffiliate from the UMC. We will later decide what we are going to do. It will be an interesting future for our church. But no doubt, both spiritually and financially, a wise decision.