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Forums Religion & Philosophy

Pope Francis expected to ask Bishop Strickland to retire

33,861 Views | 353 Replies

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Dies Irae

8:11p, 9/29/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
"homosexual committed relationships are meaningless, they mean nothing."

+++

At least you finally have put all your cards on the table. I believe that God sends people into our lives to relate an aspect of his glory.

Can you tell me what is good about a homosexual committed relationship?

You have this weird sort of understanding that if a person exists God must approve of whatever it is they are. There are many people with many different deviant and disordered desires, I will repeat for the umpteenth time that the only reason you continue to side step around this is that because you truly don't think there is anything wrong with sodomy.

Put your cards on the table, just say "I don't agree with the church teaching on sodomy and am actively looking for any reason to declare it invalid".

To you, the church stance on the death penalty is written in stone despite millennia of evidence to the contrary. The church teaching on human sexuality is flawed because you know some nice gay people.

747Ag

8:32p, 9/29/23

We hear of loving relationships, but is it loving to lead someone into grave sin (homosexual acts)?

SoulSlaveAG2005

8:42p, 9/29/23

Happy to report that +Strickland is still performing his responsibilities and duties as Shepard of his flock. Laying hands on my daughter at her Confirmation.

PabloSerna

8:51p, 9/29/23

In reply to SoulSlaveAG2005

Is the age for the sacraments of initiation (baptism, holy communion, and confirmation) younger in your diocese? She doesn't look like a 10th grader.

PabloSerna

8:55p, 9/29/23

In reply to Dies Irae

Why the fixation on the act? What of lesbian relationships? At least the church states that the psychological origin remains unexplained. But you… sodomy!

SoulSlaveAG2005

8:55p, 9/29/23

In reply to PabloSerna

Baptism is still babies.

Confirmation and first Holy Communion are in the restored order as the preferred order.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/restored-order-of-sacraments-of-initiation--3808#

PabloSerna

8:58p, 9/29/23

In reply to SoulSlaveAG2005

Wish more diocese would follow this. Congratulations! My daughter chose St. Joan D' Arc as her patron Saint.

SoulSlaveAG2005

9:01p, 9/29/23

In reply to PabloSerna

St Rose of Lima

747Ag

9:05p, 9/29/23

In reply to SoulSlaveAG2005

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:
Happy to report that +Strickland is still performing his responsibilities and duties as Shepard of his flock. Laying hands on my daughter at her Confirmation.

Bro! Yes! This is amazing! Congrats to the SoulSlave family!

747Ag

9:07p, 9/29/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
Is the age for the sacraments of initiation (baptism, holy communion, and confirmation) younger in your diocese? She doesn't look like a 10th grader.

It's funny and odd... around here, it's up to the discretion of the parish. Some 8th grade. Some 10th. Some 12th. Etc... restore the order.

PabloSerna

9:37p, 9/29/23

In reply to 747Ag

747Ag said:
We hear of loving relationships, but is it loving to lead someone into grave sin (homosexual acts)?

Careful with the word grave, since the CCC would say,

" tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."

Dies Irae

9:42p, 9/29/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
747Ag said:
We hear of loving relationships, but is it loving to lead someone into grave sin (homosexual acts)?

Careful with the word grave, since the CCC would say,

" tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."

It's literally in the same sentence in the catechism; "basing itself on sacred scripture, which depicts homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity"

747Ag

9:52p, 9/29/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
747Ag said:
We hear of loving relationships, but is it loving to lead someone into grave sin (homosexual acts)?

Careful with the word grave, since the CCC would say,

" tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."

Oh, I was careful. Declaring mortal sin involves knowledge and consent (level of guilt) on top of the grave sin. I only stated grave sin. Nevertheless, it's not loving to lead another into venial sin either. Back to the matter though, the group of sins I've listed twice now in this thread are all grave sins because of the gravity of the offense. I've remained silent towards a person's level of guilt.

The Banned

11:18p, 9/29/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
3 minutes in and he leads of with this...

2:14 "At the point I entered the seminary I was 18 years old pretty addicted to pornography, and um, sexual sin. And when I got into the seminary I started getting into more deviant behavior, acting out with gay prostitutes in Philadelphia living this duplicity life in the seminary."

For some reason I thought this was going to be about long term, committed same sex relationships.. Oh well..

The man doesn't get into long term, committed relationships because he knows it's a sin. Because the Catholic Church has always labeled it a sin. So he battles with the desires he has instead of indulging them. Rather than declare the church is wrong, he tries to align himself with the Church.

This is where you are wrong. He doesn't make himself a "gay catholic". He is Catholic. The sinful desires he has are ancillary.

PabloSerna

12:53p, 9/30/23

In reply to 747Ag

I've understood grave matter. It sounds like matter and sin are the same to you, yes?

Dies Irae

12:55p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
I've understood grave matter. It sounds like matter and sin are the same to you, yes?

I have no idea what you're trying to say, my only hope is that you don't either. Are you saying that the catechism designation of homosexual acts "as a grave depravity" is somehow less than clear on whether or not it is a grave sin?"

PabloSerna

12:56p, 9/30/23

In reply to The Banned

Words are important- because "homosexual persons are not criminals and neither is being homosexual". Would you agree?

PabloSerna

12:58p, 9/30/23

In reply to Dies Irae

The catechism does not say "grave sin". You have inserted this into the discussion. Correct?

ETA: CCC is clear that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.

PabloSerna

1:02p, 9/30/23

In reply to The Banned

The man never fell in love with another man.

ETA: So far. I haven't finished.

jkag89

1:04p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
The catechism does not say "grave sin". You have inserted this into the discussion. Correct?

ETA: CCC is clear that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.

Are not all sexual acts outside of a Sacramental Marriage a grave sin, , ,

PabloSerna

1:11p, 9/30/23

In reply to jkag89

You may look it up for confirmation, however, the word "grave" is almost always used for mortal sins.

The reason this is important is because of the level of sinfulness that can be assigned. Here is a much better explanation from the Pope, speaking on moral authority:

"It is not the first time that I speak of homosexuality and of homosexual persons. And I wanted to clarify that it is not a crime, in order to stress that criminalization is neither good nor just," the pope wrote.

"When I said it is a sin, I was simply referring to Catholic moral teaching, which says that every sexual act outside of marriage is a sin. Of course, one must also consider the circumstances, which may decrease or eliminate fault," he wrote.

"As you can see, I was repeating something in general. I should have said, 'It is a sin, as is any sexual act outside of marriage,'" he wrote. "This is to speak of 'the matter' of sin, but we know well that Catholic morality not only takes into consideration the matter, but also evaluates freedom and intention; and this, for every kind of sin."

"And I would tell whoever wants to criminalize homosexuality that they are wrong," the pope wrote.

PabloSerna

1:17p, 9/30/23

In reply to jkag89

Not all.

When my wife and I got married at the JP instead of the church- we were "living in sin" - but not mortal sin.

Clearly, adultery is a mortal sin since it is one of the Ten Commandments.

747Ag

1:20p, 9/30/23

In reply to jkag89

jkag89 said:
PabloSerna said:
The catechism does not say "grave sin". You have inserted this into the discussion. Correct?

ETA: CCC is clear that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.
Are not all sexual acts outside of a Sacramental Marriage a grave sin, , ,

Indeed. The sin is grave because it involves grave matter. The grave sin becomes mortal with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

aggietony2010

1:20p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

Why are you discussing legalization of homosexuality now? That's what the pope was addressing there. Let's actually read the whole paragraph you quoted to ignore the word "grave"

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

You're either being intentionally deceptive or willfully ignorant at this point.

Dies Irae

1:22p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
The catechism does not say "grave sin". You have inserted this into the discussion. Correct?

ETA: CCC is clear that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.

No, not correct. The catechism cannot say it is a grave sin, because certain conditions have to be met in order for it to be brave, I wont list them because we all know what the 3 are.

If it is a grave matter, then a sin against it is a grave sin, providing it fulfills all of the 3 conditions, correct?

If so, why in the name of God would we bless it?

I don't know what sort of point you're trying to make. "It might be possible for gay couples to be ignorant of the gravity of their situation, so we should we bless them since it's not technically mortal given than it's not done with full knowledge?"

PabloSerna

1:45p, 9/30/23

The CCC and the Pope are making a distinction that merely being homosexual is not in and of itself -a sin.

Only the act, which the Pope says includes all sexual acts outside of marriage - is sinful. Note he does not use the word grave, because he goes on to be more specific that circumstances can reduce or even eliminate fault.

He then repeats the conditions for the types of sin (mortal or venial) noting that "matter", "freedom", and "intention" are all factored in.

+++

ETA: The point I am making is that you cannot say "grave sin" when discussing "homosexual acts" because you cannot know fully what each of the conditions are for every situation. That is why the CCC says "intrinsically disordered" and if you are Roman Catholic - should also.

aggietony2010

1:48p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

What part of

"Under no circumstances can they be approved"

Is unclear?

PabloSerna

2:01p, 9/30/23

In reply to aggietony2010

All sexual acts outside of the sacrament of marriage are sinful and therefore not allowed. Go back and read anywhere where I stated otherwise.

Now- read carefully that the CCC states that the psychological "genesis" for homosexuality is still unknown.

That is where I am starting from. I am looking around my world (personal interactions / sciences) and contemplating this with my understanding of scripture, the catechism, and prayerful dialogue with God.

What I am thinking is that there is room for progress on this front. What that will be I don't know, but I don't seem to be the only one thinking along these lines.

747Ag

2:07p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
ETA: The point I am making is that you cannot say "grave sin" when discussing "homosexual acts" because you cannot know fully what each of the conditions are for every situation. That is why the CCC says "intrinsically disordered" and if you are Roman Catholic - should also.

Bro, the matter itself is either grave or it is not. The distinction you attempting to make here is the one the rest of us are making with respect to mortal sin per the CCC. When it comes to grave sins (matter), the knowledge/consent factors are what determines "mortality" or level of personal guilt in the offense.

PabloSerna

2:54p, 9/30/23

In reply to 747Ag

Bro, you are mixing up "grave sin" (nowhere in the CCC) and mortal sin (CCC, Parts III and IV). But - let's move on.

aggietony2010

3:08p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
Bro, you are mixing up "grave sin" (nowhere in the CCC) and mortal sin (CCC, Parts III and IV). But - let's move on.

Yes. Let's move on. Homosexual acts are, and always will be, sinful.

The Banned

3:22p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
The man never fell in love with another man.

ETA: So far. I haven't finished.

Exactly. Because he battled with his sins. He sought healing from his sins. He didn't say "I know the church says this is sinful, but I like guys so I'm gonna do it anyway" long enough to fall in love with a guy. How do you not see this?

747Ag

3:31p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
Bro, you are mixing up "grave sin" (nowhere in the CCC) and mortal sin (CCC, Parts III and IV). But - let's move on.

Hahahahaha. Ok, bro. This is similar to a sola scriptura argument... it's not explicitly stated there so it doesn't exist. Right.

PabloSerna

3:46p, 9/30/23

In reply to The Banned

I'm only half way through it- had a game to watch, whoop! However, my initial reaction is not unlike a number of former Catholic priest that have left the church only to show up in a different denomination that makes every effort to show them off as some kind of trophy.

Were they ever really Catholic to begin with? I mean the Eucharist alone is life changing.

The Banned

6:36p, 9/30/23

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:
I'm only half way through it- had a game to watch, whoop! However, my initial reaction is not unlike a number of former Catholic priest that have left the church only to show up in a different denomination that makes every effort to show them off as some kind of trophy.

Were they ever really Catholic to begin with? I mean the Eucharist alone is life changing.

Sorry, but are you suggesting a dude who had sex with other dudes and watched gay porn regularly wasn't truly gay?

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