In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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A few more thoughts after actually watching the funeral on YouTube:

1. This person impacted many people and in a very positive way. That would explain why so many attended.

2. At the beginning you can hear someone direct the presiding priest to say a "funeral service, followed by the rite of commendation." So this was not a mass as had initially been reported, however, it does not lessen the fact that this person's body was blessed and prayers said for them commending their soul to Christ. Very important to remember that point.

3. We need to separate the actions of a few, wasn't everyone, that took some liberty with the music, choice of words in a reflection, or just in general they way they choose to honor the deceased with their choice of attire. THIS is what the Archdiocese has considered sacrilege NOT the deceased.

4. The pastor for Saint Patrick's Cathedral, Very Rev. Enrique Salvo, has posted a statement on the website sympathizing with many who were outraged by the "scandalous behavior at a funeral" without naming any individuals. Clearly this is directed at those alive and not the deceased. He further goes on to say that, "At the Cardinal's directive, we have offered an appropriate Mass of Reparation." So, no more need to fear that the devil has spiked the ball in "America's Parish Church."

My opinion remains the same. What a wonderful gift Cecilia Gentili received from God. No one knows the state of anyone's soul at any point in time. How many would have guessed the thief on the cross would be with Christ that day in paradise?

From the Rite of Catholic Funerals, Prayer of Commendation:

Priest:

To you, O Lord, we commend the soul of N.N your servant;
In the sight of this world HE/SHE is now dead;
In your sight may HE/SHE live for ever.
Forgive whatever sins HE/SHE committed through human weakness
And in your goodness grant HIM/HER everlasting peace.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

R: Amen.

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"But other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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I read a little more about this person I guess. Their reason for rejecting religion was not God but his messengers. So, given that information, their work with the poor and marginalized, the funeral service, the holy water, the priest's blessings, the prayer for the commended- yeah, I don't see hell as a reward for this servant.

You have to really hate God to say in the light of God's truth at our moment of personal judgement- "I choose hell."

ETA: Found that quote:

"I just never had opportunities to experience a faith that was fully embracing of me. Religion is such a complicated issue for most queer and trans people. I used to go with my grandmother to the Baptist church, and they didn't want me there. They made it very clear. I used to go to the Catholic church, too, and both were such traumatic experiences for me as a queer person. So I came to identify as an atheist, but I know that so many trans people have been able to find a relationship with faith in spaces that include them."

This was in November of 2023 while discussing their recent interest in attending church.

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So that's all we need? Just a Catholic funeral and we're good to go? I guess this goes the same for baptism now? We can just baptize people who have no desire to be baptized and whom we have no authority over (such as infants)? You know as well as I do that is in no way the case. A blessing does not work for souls who do not want said blessing, nor do sacraments. And any rational human can see this individual is not a person seeking the blessing of a Catholic priest

Just admit you're a universalist, or at least flirting with it, and move on. You always do this. You make it 95% clear you have beliefs that are contrary to church teaching, withhold the last 5% of fully endorsing it, say you've never "officially gone against church teaching" and act as if you aren't complicit in the moral confusion inside of the church. I can see why Fr James Martin is so high on your list and Bishop Strickland receives so much scorn.

It's not important to me that this person is in hell. I don't want anyone in hell. But what I really want is people to stop acting like Jesus didn't specifically say we have to follow His lead and that many people will not make it to heaven. Hell is very real to Jesus. People are in danger of going there. It's high time you consider that place a very real danger to you (and everyone else) as well.

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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I read a little more about this person I guess. Their reason for rejecting religion was not God but his messengers. So, given that information, their work with the poor and marginalized, the funeral service, the holy water, the priest's blessings, the prayer for the commended- yeah, I don't see hell as a reward for this servant.

You have to really hate God to say in the light of God's truth at our moment of personal judgement- "I choose hell."

ETA: Found that quote:

"I just never had opportunities to experience a faith that was fully embracing of me. Religion is such a complicated issue for most queer and trans people. I used to go with my grandmother to the Baptist church, and they didn't want me there. They made it very clear. I used to go to the Catholic church, too, and both were such traumatic experiences for me as a queer person. So I came to identify as an atheist, but I know that so many trans people have been able to find a relationship with faith in spaces that include them."

This was in November of 2023 while discussing their recent interest in attending church.

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"I didn't sin agains the church, the church sinned against me. My lifestyle should have been embraced."

It's wild to me that this thought exists anywhere in the Catholic Church. There is apparently no sin that God will not ignore, even willfully committed, so long as it involves sex and identity.

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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I read a little more about this person I guess. Their reason for rejecting religion was not God but his messengers. So, given that information, their work with the poor and marginalized, the funeral service, the holy water, the priest's blessings, the prayer for the commended- yeah, I don't see hell as a reward for this servant.

You have to really hate God to say in the light of God's truth at our moment of personal judgement- "I choose hell."

ETA: Found that quote:

"I just never had opportunities to experience a faith that was fully embracing of me. Religion is such a complicated issue for most queer and trans people. I used to go with my grandmother to the Baptist church, and they didn't want me there. They made it very clear. I used to go to the Catholic church, too, and both were such traumatic experiences for me as a queer person. So I came to identify as an atheist, but I know that so many trans people have been able to find a relationship with faith in spaces that include them."

This was in November of 2023 while discussing their recent interest in attending church.

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99% of the "not the message but the messengers" are people whose lifestyle is not affirmed because it isn't in harmony with Christ or His church, and lash out as if it's the Church's problem instead of the transsexual prostitute's.

A Catholic funeral isn't a panacea. Prayers are fantastic for speeding souls through purgatory, but damnation is damnation, and a Catholic funeral is not a panacea for a life poorly lived. I understand that in many people's eyes the Catholic Church is a Red Cross or Rotary Club in clerical garb, but "live your life in whatever sin you want but do nice things for your niche marginalized" does not mesh with our belief. This sounds more in line with arch-heretic Martin Luther's "sin boldly" advice than anything in line with church teaching.

In reply to PabloSerna The same father who didn't even know who this person was? Stopping acting like because her friends lied and deceived a parish and its priests intending a funeral for someone they didn't know she received some indelible mark of grace. It's utter nonsense, and while I want to say your surely know this, who knows any more.

Lastly, if we're going to split hairs, fine. If not universalist, then you believe or at least heavily lean towards universal salvation. We all pick God at the last minute. Never mind Satan. Never mind the gospel versus of Jesus' warnings. Nevermind the church fathers. Pablo seems to know better because Von Balthazar and Bishop Barron thought it was a neat idea. If I am falsely accusing you, then you would benefit the entire board by just speaking clearly.

ETA: my second paragraph is based off the firmness in which you've spoken about this persons place in heaven. You are using a level of certainty reserved for saints

ETA2: I'm not envious of God's mercy. I'm angry at someone suggesting that those who live their entire lives in sin have nothing to fear in the end. It cheapens the gospel and endangers souls

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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lol- something about judge not lest ye be judge in the same manner comes to mind as I read your words.

You say you can see, great for you! I mean that sincerely. Thankfully God is clear that we will each be judge individually. No doubt that you and I plus others on here that like to quote scripture will be held to a higher standard. I am hopeful that my faith will not waiver, however, I will keep praying. However, this is not about me.

The sad part as this starts to "hit the fan" in real time, is that for a brief moment, a lot of people who had not stepped in church ever or for quite some time, sat in the pews as the lectors, choir, and priest read from the Bible. The Gospel was about the death and raising of Lazarus. The Priest went on to give a homily on the Catholic understanding of death as, "just the beginning, not the end." His message was a hopeful one that may have touched the heart of someone attending or online streaming, like a seed planted.

Now, all we can do is quibble about the way some of Cecilia's friends and "family" choose to honor her with their attire, message to the LGBTQ community, and use of the words, ***** and saint. "Cecilia died with Christ," says Father Edward Dougherty, administering the service for the 52-year-old, after actor Billy Porter sang "This Day."

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I am not judging them, I do not get to do that, they may be in Heaven for Christ is Mercy Incarnate, but I do not think that likely given what we know about their life and what we know and their refusal to become a member of the body of Christ unless it was on their own terms.

"Take up your cross and follow me" a poignant lesson for all of us during this time of Lent. Much as Christ let those depart from him who said "This teaching is hard, who can accept it?" he will not force anyone to love him. Everyone is welcome to the wedding feast, but under Christ's terms and not our own.

When you have Fr.James Martin and Cardinal Dolan calling the service "disrespectful" and ordering a mass of reparation held, no more needs to be said. These two are not known for the orthodoxy to say the least and the fact that even they're pushing back against this scandal says more than anything else

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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Did Bishop Strickland's tweet pass over your head? Even he understands what happened.

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Pablo what are you talking about about? I agree with every word of Bishop Strickland's tweet. Do you? I feel like we just went to a football game, half the stadium was blown up and people were massacred, and you can't stop talking about how good the nachos were.

About that funeral … What happened at a controversial NYC liturgy last week? (pillarcatholic.com)

Looks like the priest called an audible and cancelled the Mass that was planned as the liturgy began, so at least that was averted.

The Archdiocese of NY serves New York City on the terms that everyday New Yorkers wish to be served, up to and including desecration and political sideshows. The faithful Catholics and the immortal souls of every child of God in their area are on their own.

Seems to me that you would have to pull a few strings and actually know a few people to get a funeral service/Mass in any cathedral, much less St. Patrick's.

Clownsho

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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Ah- well you can't pray for people who are in hell can you? He also notes that the outrage is about the people attending the "occasion" of Cecilia's death.

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Yes, you can and you should. Even if the departed soul may not benefit from our offering, we trust that such offerings will find a worthy recipient. Just as we should offer spiritual works of mercy for souls who've entered heaven. Both are eternal states wherein they can't benefit from our prayers either because they've received the beatific vision, or because they're eternally damned. We can't be sure of a deceased person's state after particular judgement. To point to people's offerings for this man's soul as evidence he's in purgatory is wrong.

Eta: here again you've honed in on one aspect of the tweet and twisted its meaning. How about the rest? Do you agree with all.of what the Bishop wrote?

In reply to Bob Lee You may also take a note out of Jimmy Akin's book and say that since God is outside of time, he has no issue with applying our prayers now to this persons life moments before their death. So to pray that she had a chance to convert prior to death is A OK

In reply to PabloSerna The last paragraph is elementary and you know it. Public vs private sin. It's not like the priest was openly touching kids for everyone to see. No way you don't know this

In reply to The Banned

The Banned said:

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The last paragraph is elementary and you know it. Public vs private sin. It's not like the priest was openly touching kids for everyone to see. No way you don't know this

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This is his shtick. He will defend the LGBT+ no matter what and he will play dumb when it fits.

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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Ah- well you can't pray for people who are in hell can you? He also notes that the outrage is about the people attending the "occasion" of Cecilia's death.

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I believe Cecilia is kind of tangential to this entire discussion. Odds are that he had no intention of having a funeral in a Catholic Church and the sole reason that St.Patrick's was chosen by his friends and family was that it was "iconic" and he was "iconic" i.e to make a huge scene.

Cardinal Dolan on St. Patrick's Funeral: 'We Don't Do FBI Checks on People Who Want to Be Buried'

Quote:

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Priests at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City were surprised by the "irreverence and disrespect" that occurred during a funeral for a transgender activist last week, Cardinal Timothy Dolan said in his first public comments on it.

"We didn't know the background. We don't do FBI checks on people who want to be buried," Dolan, the archbishop of New York, said during his podcast Tuesday.

He said cathedral staff try to be welcoming when someone requests a funeral.

"All they know is somebody called and said, 'Our dear friend died. We'd love to have the funeral at St. Patrick's Cathedral. It would be a great source of consolation. She's a Catholic. It would be a great source of consolation for us, her family and friends.' And of course, the priest at the cathedral said, 'Come on in. You're more than welcome,'" Dolan said.

The priests at St. Patrick's made a decision at the beginning of the service not to celebrate a funeral Mass but to conduct a funeral service with no Mass instead. It was the right thing to do given the situation, the cardinal said.

"I applaud our priests who made a quick decision that, 'Uh-oh, with behavior like this, we can't do a Mass. We'll do the Liturgy of the Word, which is the readings, and the sermon, and the prayers of petition, and the Our Father, and then we'll stop it. The Mass is not going to go on,'" Dolan said. "Bravo for our cathedral people, who knew nothing about this that was coming up."

Meanwhile, though, supporters of the deceased are demanding an apology from the Archdiocese of New York for what they described as "cutting short" the Feb. 15 funeral service of Cecilia Gentili, 52, a male who identified as a woman who died Feb. 6. Supporters of Gentili also want an apology for what they called "the painfully dismissive and exclusionary language" used in a statement released by the pastor of the cathedral after the funeral.

"The current narrative from St. Patrick's Cathedral leadership that they were manipulated by funeral organizers of the identity of Ms. Gentili is simply not true," an organization called Gays and Lesbians Living in a Transgender Society said in a written statement. "Funeral organizers advised cathedral staff to look up Cecilia Gentili, her work, and the community she served. To now place responsibility on the funeral organizers to have affirmatively disclosed the gender identity of their loved one is imposing a burden upon the mourners that would not be expected of a non-transgender person."

However, the New York Times reported that the funeral's organizer did not disclose to the cathedral that Gentili, who died Feb. 6 at age 52, was a biological man who identified as a woman.

"I kept it under wraps," Ceyeye Doroshow, the service's organizer, told the outlet.

The organization also suggested that cathedral staff violated the Catholic Church's law.
"Still reeling from the pain of Cecilia's loss, community members are asking for an explanation for this decision which seemingly violated Catholic Canon Law governing the denial of funeral [M]asses," the organization said. "… Ms. Gentili's service ended an hour earlier than had been scheduled, thus denying her the full funeral Mass that was agreed upon."

Joseph Zwilling, a spokesman for the Archdiocese of New York, contacted by CNA on Wednesday said the archdiocese had no immediate comment on the Gentili supporters' statement.

Asked by email who decided to replace the funeral Mass with the shorter funeral service, Zwilling said the decision "was made by the priests at the cathedral after witnessing what was taking place."

A video of the service posted online last week shows that shortly after the procession down the aisle, the presider, Father Edward Dougherty, looking out into the crowd, said with a laugh: "Well, welcome to St. Patrick's Cathedral. Except on Easter Sunday, we don't really have a crowd that is this well turned out, you know?"

After a short delay, the crowd responded with more than 40 seconds of clapping, standing, and cheering, with occasional chants of "Cecilia."

During the ovation, the video shows, a priest dressed in black approached Dougherty and told him, "No Eucharist," eventually followed with the words "a funeral service, no Mass."

Outburst at funeral

As CNA reported last week, the prayers of the faithful during the service included a call for "Cecilia's community" to "have access to life-affirming health care" an apparent reference to gender transitioning to raucous applause.

Two of the three eulogies were critical of Catholic teaching on human sexuality. The organizer of the funeral, Doroshow, a male who identifies as a woman, who wore a purple dress, said Gentili "worked so hard to make sure girls like me, boys like you are safe, are grounded, got health care, that sex workers are free." A standing ovation followed the "sex workers" reference.

A man who delivered a third eulogy used a Spanish word for "*****" several times. Another man lauded the deceased as "This *****, this great *****, St. Cecilia, mother of all *****s." Raucous applause and a standing ovation followed.

On Tuesday, Cardinal Dolan addressed the Gentili funeral about five minutes into his podcast after discussing a few other topics, including the recent shooting at the Super Bowl parade in Kansas City. Dolan mentioned that he had received "a note of solidarity" from Harrison Butker, the Kansas Chiefs kicker, about what Dolan described as "the irreverence and disrespect" of the crowd at the funeral, and the "very irreverent and disrespectful" eulogies.

The cardinal asked the cathedral staff to celebrate a Mass of reparation after the funeral service, which the pastor, Father Enrique Salvo, said last week was done.

"In a way, it's redundant," Dolan said Tuesday. "Because every Mass, every Mass is the renewal of the infinitely powerful act of reparation that Jesus did on the cross, correct? He's the one that made reparation. We can't do much. All we can do is unite with him on his cross in his sacred act of reparation. There is a bit of an arrow in the quiver of the Church's treasury of prayer that if a particularly sacrilegious or scandalous act has occurred in a church, it would be good to offer a Mass in particular reparation for that act of irreverence. So we did that."

Salvo released a written statement Feb. 17, two days after the funeral, acknowledging what he called "outrage over the scandalous behavior" during Gentili's funeral.

"The cathedral only knew that family and friends were requesting a funeral Mass for a Catholic, and had no idea our welcome and prayer would be degraded in such a sacrilegious and deceptive way," Salvo said in the statement.

Some mainstream media news stories last week hailed the funeral as a shift in the Catholic Church's approach to gender identity. Dolan expressed frustration Tuesday with criticism by some Catholics of the cathedral staff and his archdiocese.

"We have a lot of misunderstanding. Why in the world our people out there still believe what the secular press reports is beyond me," Dolan said.

Later, he added: "Our policy at the cathedral is to be as open and welcoming of anybody who wants to be buried from here. And we had absolutely no idea about this. But why people still think the cathedral purposely did that? Well, a lot of people always want to believe the worst. And they don't like us any more than the protesters did, in the cathedral. But who knows."

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Maybe Cardinal Dolan isn't all that concerned with being used by people that wish to ridicule the faith; I guess he has to have his own calibration on how important that is. NYC is one of the capitals of the culture that has turned virulently against faith in general and towards lifestyles that the RCC remains officially against on a shrinking list of institutions. The Catholic Church should be a place of healing for people turning away from sin, not a spiritual therapeutic for troubled people that do not acknowledge their troubles on Catholic terms.

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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I am consistently surprised by the hardness of heart some have towards people on the margins. I guess I shouldn't because Jesus preached that many will say they know him, but will not lift a finger towards their brother or sister that is suffering.

Here we have a person that admitted at one time to be an atheist, primarily because they felt rejected, not on some philosophical ground. Then towards the end of their life, according to an interview late last year, they wanted to revisit God. We don't know more than that, but it would seem that something was stirring in their heart.

While some of the attendees were acting irreverent, one would have to assume they knew better, others attested to the positive impact this person had on their lives. Yet, all we hear about is the outrage and scandal because this work of mercy, a Catholic funeral, took place in the house of God for a person that was trans.

I know that God works in mysterious ways and that he chooses the weak to show us his glory- but this takes the cake!

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Two things can be true:

1. We should be kind to all people

2. Hat happened in the cathedral was incredibly wrong and, based on some comments from an organizer, likely intentional

In reply to PabloSerna

PabloSerna said:

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I am consistently surprised by the hardness of heart some have towards people on the margins. I guess I shouldn't because Jesus preached that many will say they know him, but will not lift a finger towards their brother or sister that is suffering.

Here we have a person that admitted at one time to be an atheist, primarily because they felt rejected, not on some philosophical ground. Then towards the end of their life, according to an interview late last year, they wanted to revisit God. We don't know more than that, but it would seem that something was stirring in their heart.

While some of the attendees were acting irreverent, one would have to assume they knew better, others attested to the positive impact this person had on their lives. Yet, all we hear about is the outrage and scandal because this work of mercy, a Catholic funeral, took place in the house of God for a person that was trans.

I know that God works in mysterious ways and that he chooses the weak to show us his glory- but this takes the cake!

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They're hostile toward God. How deeply vicious do you have to be to stump for the antithesis of magisterial teaching on human sexuality in the sanctuary of a Catholic cathedral during a liturgy?

How do you not see that this is a blatant and bold attack on Truth and goodness by Satan? Could it possibly be more obvious?

St. Michael the Archangel. Defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray, and do thou, o prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.