In reply to shack009 It's a little more nuanced than that.

Best description I've seen (and it was on TexAgs)

The conservatives say you can have any political/cultural views you want, but there are theological tenets we must share.

The liberals say you can have any theology you want, but there are political/cultural views we must share.

Hard to say who's the most "judgmental".

In reply to cecil77

cecil77 said:

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It's a little more nuanced than that.

Best description I've seen (and it was on TexAgs)

The conservatives say you can have any political/cultural views you want, but there are theological tenets we must share.

The liberals say you can have any theology you want, but there are political/cultural views we must share.

Hard to say who's the most "judgmental".

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First, this has nothing to do with what I posted about.

Second, everything you said (or everything you are repeating that someone else said) is not correct.

In reply to shack009 Actually, it is, but opinions vary.

In reply to Wyoming Aggie

Wyoming Aggie said:

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cevans_40 said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Some Junkie Cosmonaut said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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NCNJ1217 said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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A Net Full of Jello said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Who gives a **** if they are gay? Nobody forces you to go to the church. I get sick and tired of "Christians" judging people. Isn't God the judge?

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The Bible is pretty clear that Christians are to hold each other accountable and call out sin in each other's lives. The Methodist church is rebelling against God's word and, therefore, against God himself. As brothers and sisters in Christ, it is not only our right but our responsibility to call them out for failing to follow His teachings. If they choose to continue in their sin, that will be on them, but, as James 4:17 tells us (So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.), if we know they are sinning and opt not to call out their sin and try to get them back on the right path, we are just as wrong and sinful as they are.



Just a handful of verses about holding each other accountable and calling out sin. There are many, many others:

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. - Galatians 6:1-2

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. - Matthew 18:15-17

Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up! Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone? And though a man might prevail against one who is alone, two will withstand hima threefold cord is not quickly broken. - Ecclesiastes 4:9-12

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. - Ephesians 4:25

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. - James 5:19-20

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. - Colossians 3:16

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. - Hebrews 3:13-15

Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, - Luke 17:3

Whoever says to the wicked, "You are in the right," will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations, but those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them. - Proverbs 24:24

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Or just let people live their damn lives while you worry about your own.

I swear "Christians" are worse than the government about telling people how to live their lives.

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"here, let me ignore all the other posts that owned me earlier in the thread, and respond to this guy in the hope the previous ownage has been forgotten about"

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OMG I WAS SO PWN3D

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Indeed you have been.

And this last post shows the maturity of a 5th grader. Take the L and fight another day.

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Please explain to me how I was owned. There's 350,000 churches in this country. If you don't like what others are doing in their church, you can simply stay away from them instead of judging them for how they wish to worship. I know that's hard for Christians to do though. Like it or not, this judgmental worldview is the biggest reason why people are leaving the church in droves.

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Nope. They are leaving because it takes sacrifice, discipline, and courage to be a Christian. It's much easier to sit on the sidelines and take the "live and let live" approach as we roll downhill to hell.

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"Live and let live" is the way everyone should lead their lives.

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And they are doing that

"Being judgemental" is simply "having an opinion"

Which doesn't affect you in the least

So quit whining like a baby

In reply to Captain Pablo

Captain Pablo said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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cevans_40 said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Some Junkie Cosmonaut said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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NCNJ1217 said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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A Net Full of Jello said:

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Wyoming Aggie said:

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Who gives a **** if they are gay? Nobody forces you to go to the church. I get sick and tired of "Christians" judging people. Isn't God the judge?

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The Bible is pretty clear that Christians are to hold each other accountable and call out sin in each other's lives. The Methodist church is rebelling against God's word and, therefore, against God himself. As brothers and sisters in Christ, it is not only our right but our responsibility to call them out for failing to follow His teachings. If they choose to continue in their sin, that will be on them, but, as James 4:17 tells us (So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.), if we know they are sinning and opt not to call out their sin and try to get them back on the right path, we are just as wrong and sinful as they are.



Just a handful of verses about holding each other accountable and calling out sin. There are many, many others:

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. - Galatians 6:1-2

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. - Matthew 18:15-17

Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up! Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone? And though a man might prevail against one who is alone, two will withstand hima threefold cord is not quickly broken. - Ecclesiastes 4:9-12

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. - Ephesians 4:25

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. - James 5:19-20

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. - Colossians 3:16

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. - Hebrews 3:13-15

Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, - Luke 17:3

Whoever says to the wicked, "You are in the right," will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations, but those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them. - Proverbs 24:24

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Or just let people live their damn lives while you worry about your own.

I swear "Christians" are worse than the government about telling people how to live their lives.

---

"here, let me ignore all the other posts that owned me earlier in the thread, and respond to this guy in the hope the previous ownage has been forgotten about"

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OMG I WAS SO PWN3D

---

Indeed you have been.

And this last post shows the maturity of a 5th grader. Take the L and fight another day.

---

Please explain to me how I was owned. There's 350,000 churches in this country. If you don't like what others are doing in their church, you can simply stay away from them instead of judging them for how they wish to worship. I know that's hard for Christians to do though. Like it or not, this judgmental worldview is the biggest reason why people are leaving the church in droves.

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Nope. They are leaving because it takes sacrifice, discipline, and courage to be a Christian. It's much easier to sit on the sidelines and take the "live and let live" approach as we roll downhill to hell.

---

"Live and let live" is the way everyone should lead their lives.

---

And they are doing that

"Being judgemental" is simply "having an opinion"

Which doesn't affect you in least

So quit whining like a baby

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Just part of the human condition. Completely open minded people do NOT exist. Hard to live when your brains fall out.

For folks who have not served in a Methodist church that decided to remain UMC, don't attack UMC churches.

In reply to txwxman

txwxman said:

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For folks who have not served in a Methodist church that decided to remain UMC, don't attack UMC churches.

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Not your best effort.

In reply to HumpitPuryear

Quote:

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I know of two local small churches that voted well above 50% in favor of disaffiliation but failed to meet the 2/3 majority. The 50%+ that wanted disaffiliation promptly left leaving the small minority that "won" with churches they can't fill and bills they can't pay. This is all part of the plan. Liberals want Christianity watered down to the point that the Bible could be a two page brochure on being nice to people like Jesus would do. Failing that, they are more than happy to see these churches fold. The endowments will be raided and the real estate sold and the proceeds will fund progressive causes. That's a win for the progressives.

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This is the "best" summary of what will most likely come to pass that I've seen in writing. What a sad, sad, legacy for a once vibrant witness for the body of Christ. Perhaps the Methodist hutch can rise again like a Phoenix out of the ashes of the morally bankrupt UMC.

In reply to frenchtoast

frenchtoast said:

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How long do you have to practice before you get it down?

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You don't practice till you get it right. You practice till you can't get it wrong.

Satan at work...sad

It is my understanding that Texas law says that the congregation owns the Real Estate. Not the UMC. The congregation in other states try to buy the Church Real Estate from the UMC if they can afford it. Most can't afford it and have to start over. Like it was said above, the lack of tithes will force the UMC to sell off the stolen Real Estate and pocket the money for their use. Like a drug addict, the money will dry up and they will go leach off of somebody else under the guise of Gods work. These tough times have made the people in the small town country Churches realize they're are not insulated from the threat of Satan stealing what has belonged in the community for generations.

BTHO LSU

In reply to Fishing Fools

Fishing Fools said:

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It is my understanding that Texas law says that the congregation owns the Real Estate. Not the UMC. The congregation in other states try to buy the Church Real Estate from the UMC if they can afford it. Most can't afford it and have to start over. Like it was said above, the lack of tithes will force the UMC to sell off the stolen Real Estate and pocket the money for their use. Like a drug addict, the money will dry up and they will go leach off of somebody else under the guise of Gods work. These tough times have made the people in the small town country Churches realize they're are not insulated from the threat of Satan stealing what has belonged in the community for generations.

BTHO LSU

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I don't think there is any "law". There was a court case, but that is not the same thing. Most of it boils down to what agreements congregations have with their larger assemblies or synods. Each denomination is different.

ELCA Lutherans are going through this as well, and it is a mess. ELCA was formed in the 1980s through a merger of two national Lutheran bodies, the LCA and ALC (there were some others, but those were the two big ones). Their structures and relationships with congregations were different. Now 40 years later, some of those congregations want to leave because of the same issues going on in the UMC. Whether or not those congregations keep the property largely falls back to those agreements from prior to the merger.

In reply to cecil77

cecil77 said:

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First UMC Boerne punted, or whistled past the graveyard, and didn't even discuss it.

As to disaffiliation, my take is my church is more than the real property. 200 of us (or 50 of us) can start a new GMC congregation, meet in a school auditorium or other facility and grow. In several years our UMC church will be broke and we can buy the facility back at a discount. I've been a part of two church startups before, don't really want to again at my age, but I'm not going to be affiliated with the UMC and longer.

I will give our church a little while to decide, but not very long.

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So that's where all the Subarus in Boerne go on Sunday! Sorry, hope the joke provided some levity. I hate to hear they're punting on this issue, that is a real shame. If the 200 or 50 of you all don't want to start a new church Boerne is blessed with many churches with sound doctrine.

In reply to Im Gipper

Im Gipper said:

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txwxman said:

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For folks who have not served in a Methodist church that decided to remain UMC, don't attack UMC churches.

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Not your best effort.

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Agreed. I copied someone's approach in the stolen valor thread where they said something like "only someone who has served in the military can criticize someone accused of stolen valor." It's obviously a less than effective rhetorical approach.

In reply to Yale Jeez, thanks Yale. False doctrine, lol.

Thought I would take a few minutes to peruse some prior posts from Wyoming Ag. Literally every thread he comments on he acts like a whiny little ***** and that is not hyperbole. He is always complaining in some context about anything that doesn't align with his lib doctrines.

Turns out that permitting LGBTQ clergy and same-sex marriage were not the only changes coming to the UMC. Support for abortion rights, mandatory diversity representation on all church boards, and no more permitted congregational disaffiliations are some of the other major changes. Below is an abbreviated list of the new UMC doctrines and practices. There is a link below to more detailed info.

Quick Look at the Recent General Conference of the United Methodist Church

The General Conference of the United Methodist Church concluded last week in Charlotte, NC.

Below are some of the changes the General Conference effected in official United Methodist doctrine and practice:

A Redefinition of Marriage
A redefinition of marriage to include same-sex couples: "Within the church, we affirm marriage as a sacred lifelong covenant that brings two people of faith, an adult man and woman of consenting age, or two adult persons of consenting age into union with one another";

The Ordination of People in Same-Sex Relationships
The permitting of "self-avowed practicing homosexual" candidates to be ordained and to serve as pastors in the UMC;

The Use of Church Buildings for Same-Sex Marriage Ceremonies
The opening of United Methodist churches to host same-sex marriage ceremonies, and the permitting of UMC pastors to officiate at same-sex marriage ceremonies;

The Removal of Adultery as a Specific Chargeable Offense for Married Pastors
The removal of a specific mention of adultery as a chargeable offense for married pastors (the phrase "fidelity in marriage" was removed); the removal of a specific mention of a failure to live celibately as a chargeable offense for unmarried pastors (the phrase "celibacy in singleness" was removed);

UMC Support of Abortion Rights
The approval of a resolution declaring the UMC's support of abortion rights: "The United Methodist Church affirms this statement and upholds a person's right to an abortion after informed consideration with their family, medical practitioners, pastor, and other pertinent counsel. State and federal laws and regulations prohibiting abortion violate a person's right to the full range of reproductive health care, and, potentially, life."

The Mandating of Diversity Requirements for Official Boards and Bodies
The requirement that official boards and bodies include people representing various diverse constituencies, including people of various sexual orientations. For example, with regard to the Judicial Council: "The Judicial Council shall be composed of nine members and should reflect the diversity of The United Methodist Church, including race, age, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, disability, economic condition, jurisdiction and central conferences, and congregational size."

The Ending of the Possibility of Disaffiliation for UMC Congregations
The window for disaffiliation from the UMC closed on December 31, 2023, and the General Conference declined to continue this policy.

More details here:
what-happened-at-the-united-methodist-general-conferencev20.pdf (peopleneedjesus.net)


My wife and I were formerly active members of the UMC in Houston, but we left the summer of 2015 when an ultra-liberal pastor was assigned to our church. Now we are in the process of joining a congregation that disaffiliated from the UMC.

In reply to drcrinum

drcrinum said:

---

Turns out that permitting LGBTQ clergy and same-sex marriage were not the only changes coming to the UMC. Support for abortion rights, mandatory diversity representation on all church boards, and no more permitted congregational disaffiliations are some of the other major changes. Below is an abbreviated list of the new UMC doctrines and practices. There is a link below to more detailed info.

Quick Look at the Recent General Conference of the United Methodist Church

The General Conference of the United Methodist Church concluded last week in Charlotte, NC.

Below are some of the changes the General Conference effected in official United Methodist doctrine and practice:

A Redefinition of Marriage
A redefinition of marriage to include same-sex couples: "Within the church, we affirm marriage as a sacred lifelong covenant that brings two people of faith, an adult man and woman of consenting age, or two adult persons of consenting age into union with one another";

The Ordination of People in Same-Sex Relationships
The permitting of "self-avowed practicing homosexual" candidates to be ordained and to serve as pastors in the UMC;

The Use of Church Buildings for Same-Sex Marriage Ceremonies
The opening of United Methodist churches to host same-sex marriage ceremonies, and the permitting of UMC pastors to officiate at same-sex marriage ceremonies;

The Removal of Adultery as a Specific Chargeable Offense for Married Pastors
The removal of a specific mention of adultery as a chargeable offense for married pastors (the phrase "fidelity in marriage" was removed); the removal of a specific mention of a failure to live celibately as a chargeable offense for unmarried pastors (the phrase "celibacy in singleness" was removed);

UMC Support of Abortion Rights
The approval of a resolution declaring the UMC's support of abortion rights: "The United Methodist Church affirms this statement and upholds a person's right to an abortion after informed consideration with their family, medical practitioners, pastor, and other pertinent counsel. State and federal laws and regulations prohibiting abortion violate a person's right to the full range of reproductive health care, and, potentially, life."

The Mandating of Diversity Requirements for Official Boards and Bodies
The requirement that official boards and bodies include people representing various diverse constituencies, including people of various sexual orientations. For example, with regard to the Judicial Council: "The Judicial Council shall be composed of nine members and should reflect the diversity of The United Methodist Church, including race, age, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, disability, economic condition, jurisdiction and central conferences, and congregational size."

The Ending of the Possibility of Disaffiliation for UMC Congregations
The window for disaffiliation from the UMC closed on December 31, 2023, and the General Conference declined to continue this policy.

More details here:
what-happened-at-the-united-methodist-general-conferencev20.pdf (peopleneedjesus.net)


My wife and I were formerly active members of the UMC in Houston, but we left the summer of 2015 when an ultra-liberal pastor was assigned to our church. Now we are in the process of joining a congregation that disaffiliated from the UMC.

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Glad our congregation disaffiliated back in September. Sad.

In reply to drcrinum

drcrinum said:

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A Redefinition of Marriage

The Ordination of People in Same-Sex Relationships

The Use of Church Buildings for Same-Sex Marriage Ceremonies

The Removal of Adultery as a Specific Chargeable Offense for Married Pastors

UMC Support of Abortion Rights

The Mandating of Diversity Requirements for Official Boards and Bodies

The Ending of the Possibility of Disaffiliation for UMC Congregations

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The Methodists started to turn into freaks 30 years ago.

In reply to bobbranco In many respects it's almost like an appeal to attract the left wing of the Democrat Party.

When we severed our relationship with the UMC during the summer of 2015, the new liberal pastor at our church gave a sermon wherein he stated that his wife (a school teacher) was voting for Hillary Clinton, and that he hadn't decided yet on whether to vote Libertarian or for Hillary...he stated he definitely was not going to vote for Trump.

Also abandoned Israel.

In reply to drcrinum

drcrinum said:

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In many respects it's almost like an appeal to attract the left wing of the Democrat Party.

When we severed our relationship with the UMC during the summer of 2015, the new liberal pastor at our church gave a sermon wherein he stated that his wife (a school teacher) was voting for Hillary Clinton, and that he hadn't decided yet on whether to vote Libertarian or for Hillary...he stated he definitely was not going to vote for Trump.

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Guy sounds like a grade A loser and/or beta male! I bet the wife is also a piece of work!

Straight up defying the Ten Commandments now with the changes to adultery. Guess they figured "Screw it, we're allowing sin with homosexuality, might as well start crossing off the Ten Commandments."

In reply to Tramp96

Tramp96 said:

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I think officially they didn't allow them if they were practicing.

This was coming as soon as the big split happened. Previously, the African delegates stopped it from happening, and then as soon as that was followed up with the big split, you knew this was about to happen next.

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NM

The American UMC is getting ready to experience a major defunding when LOTS of folks vote with their feets. No money, no overhead. The vine is getting pruned. Simple choice - smoking or non-smoking.

In reply to WBBQ74 Yeah, a bunch of us will hang around our long time local congregations to see what may happen, but the money will stop.

Also, if there were any Christian intentions, "they" would be saying, "If you don't want to be with us, then by all means leave, and take your buildings with you. We wish you the best."

But just because "they" say "we" can't leave, that's BS, We can do whatever we want. Whether it be using the court system to retain the property we've paid for, or just starting a new church, letting the old one go broke and buying the buildings back then.

" The Removal of Adultery as a Specific Chargeable Offense for Married Pastors
The removal of a specific mention of adultery as a chargeable offense for married pastors (the phrase "fidelity in marriage" was removed); the removal of a specific mention of a failure to live celibately as a chargeable offense for unmarried pastors (the phrase "celibacy in singleness" was removed);"

TBH, my expectations of most Methodist clergy are very low anyway whether it's work ethic or marital fidelity or basic organizational skills or even functioning as an adult. It's already very hard for them to get fired and they basically have jobs for life.

Face it, Methodists

In 15 years your grand downtown adorning buildings in Everywhere, America will be little more than weekly gatherings of goofball non-denominational barefoot rock shows and their hand waving super fans

It's over

Everything a liberal touches turns to sh/t