General Milley - Page 2

CanyonAg77

5:44p, 10/25/23

Your examples did not include back channel discussions

And there is a difference between governments talking to each other out of the public eye, and someone going against his commander

Aggie Therapist

5:57p, 10/25/23

In reply to CanyonAg77

Yeah, how many SEC DEFs did Trump blow through?

When Trump is bad mouthing Mad Dog Mattis, you know the dude is off his rockers. Another man who gave up having a family for his Marine Corps. Stayed single his entire life/career to give his country everything.

Trump is toxic and brings out the blue vote.

CanyonAg77

6:55p, 10/25/23

In reply to Aggie Therapist

I don't believe I mentioned Trump at all

Aggie Therapist

7:12p, 10/25/23

In reply to CanyonAg77

"Going against his commander"

CanyonAg77

7:30p, 10/25/23

In reply to Aggie Therapist

Aggie Therapist said:
"Going against his commander"

I guess I missed the part where it matters who the commander is.

Aggie Therapist

7:42p, 10/25/23

In reply to CanyonAg77

You never had a toxic commander before?

Edit: With questionable character and unethical leadership?

CanyonAg77

8:29p, 10/25/23

In reply to Aggie Therapist

Aggie Therapist said:
You never had a toxic commander before?

Edit: With questionable character and unethical leadership?

Didn't serve. Spent most of my life self employed.

I'm trying to figure out what kind of toxic commander compels treason.

PanzerAggie06

8:20a, 10/26/23

In reply to Aggie Therapist

Aggie Therapist said:
PanzerAggie06 said:
Aggie Therapist said:
PanzerAggie06 said:
Woke or not Milley needed to put his fat ass on a damn diet. Watching fatty bust out of his uniform as he waddled about DC was pathetic.

Stfu you dirty leg.

Shove that M1 up your ass

M1A1…. get it correct.

Got to fire one once in Korea. Nice little death machine.

You do know they are on the SEPV4 now and it's M1A2?

Got on the M1A2 once….. impressive. Saw there they are now working on the Abrams X. Supposed to be a radical change. 3 man crew, auto loader, and crewless turret.

We'll see if it happens.

Aggie Therapist

8:46a, 10/26/23

In reply to PanzerAggie06

Wow that's impressive. I was a Infantry PL in a CAB. So you my vehicle...

The back and forth banter between Infantry and Armor is fun but I will respect those Tankers.

1. Scouts leading us through a mud patch to a quartering party at NTC. My brad got stuck. Tanker XO buddy pulled me out with his tank.

2. December in the box in germany, everyone fueling their vehicles and freezing conditions. All the infantrymen gathered behind the tanks for that warm clean air.

You’re not alone—the Veterans Crisis Line is here for you. You don’t have to be enrolled in VA benefits or health care to call.

Dial 988 Press 1

CT'97

9:47a, 10/27/23

In reply to CanyonAg77

CanyonAg77 said:
Your examples did not include back channel discussions

And there is a difference between governments talking to each other out of the public eye, and someone going against his commander

One did and one did not. That is the point of using those specific examples. With the use of back channel communications we walked back from the edge and never truly went that close. Without their use we were minutes from the destruction of life on earth as we know it.

CanyonAg77

10:05a, 10/27/23

In reply to CT'97

Again, the JFK administration privately telling the Soviets that we would take missiles out of Turkey, if they would take missiles out of Cuba, is not the same as if JFK's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs would have told Khrushchev not to worry about that Kennedy guy, he'd let Nikita know if Kennedy tried to attack.

CT'97

4:32p, 10/27/23

In reply to CanyonAg77

I think your interpretation of what happened on the call is probably wrong.

Gen. Milley's call was coordinated, recorded and staffed. Staffed means lots of people listening in on both sides both interpreting and recording what was said. This is standard procedure. That information was sent out to both the White House and other agencies with a need to know. So Trump's White House knew about the call before it happened and exactly what was said on the call after it happened.

Trump and the Sec Def knew about this and if it was in fact treason, they were in a position to both fire Gen. Milley and bring treason charges. It was only after Trump left office and the book came out that referenced the call and made Trump look bad that he got mad and he attacked Gen. Milley.

The only thing unusual about the call was Trump deciding it made him look bad and thus he needed to attack Gen. Milley after the fact. It's also more proof that neither Trump nor his staff were paying attention to his daily briefs because I guarantee you that a call between his CJC and the Chinese PLA was part of that brief.

CanyonAg77

12:49p, 10/30/23

In reply to CT'97

CT'97 said:
So Trump's White House knew about the call before it happened and exactly what was said on the call after it happened

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/milley-held-secret-calls-with-china-others-as-trump-pushed-election-lies.html

Quote:
Milley did not tell Trump about the calls...

Milley's spokesman also appeared to confirm that Milley talked with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in the days following the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, to assure her that safeguards were in place to prevent Trump from launching nuclear weapons or ordering the military to somehow try to keep him in power after he lost the election.

He told Pelosi that "there's not a snowball's chance in hell this president, or any president can launch nuclear weapons illegally, immorally, unethically without proper certification," according to the book.

After the call, Milley, who "felt no absolute certainty that the military could control or trust Trump," held a meeting with senior officers of the National Military Command Center to review the procedures for launching nuclear weapons, according to the book.

AllTheFishes

1:23p, 10/30/23

In reply to CanyonAg77

edit to delete post, sorry my wifes account was logged in.

CT'97

1:24p, 10/30/23

In reply to CanyonAg77

Again, I think there is an intentional missinterpretation by the writer to build suspition. The rest of the pentagon statement says.

Quote:
Quote:
"All calls from the Chairman to his counterparts, including those reported, are staffed, coordinated and communicated with the Department of Defense and the interagency," Butler said in Wednesday's statement.

[url=https://thehill.com/policy/defense/572407-joint-chiefs-spokesperson-confirms-milley-calls-with-china-defends-them-as/][/url]https://thehill.com/policy/defense/572407-joint-chiefs-spokesperson-confirms-milley-calls-with-china-defends-them-as/

So Milley didn't call Trump and personally tell him he was making the call. That wouldn't be a normal thing for Milley to do and Trump likely wouldn't have taken his call anyways as Trump was known for never taking calls unless he personally requested it and wanted something out of it. But Milley wasn't hiding the fact either and the results of a staffed call between those two would have been in the presidents daily brief. The representation that these were "secert" only shows up in media interpretation of the calls.

CanyonAg77

2:41p, 10/30/23

In reply to CT'97

Well, it is CNBC

WolfCall

11:15p, 11/24/23

Let's assume, arguendo, that Mark Milley did an outstanding job during the last ten years of his career except for one singular area, Army recruiting.

Mark Milley is responsible for the abysmal recruiting, which is a genuine crisis.

Recruiting Fiasco

Quote:
After missing goal again, Army announces sweeping recruiting reforms
By Davis Winkie Army Times Tuesday, Oct 3

The Army has launched far-reaching reforms that will transform how it attracts and recruits new soldiers, its top leaders said in a press conference today.

The moves come after the service failed to meet its recruiting targets for two consecutive fiscal years, which caused its end strength to fall from an original level of 485,000 in late 2021 to around 452,000 active duty soldiers today its smallest full-time force since 1940, the year before the U.S. entered World War II.

....

Milley was at the helm for two consecutive fiscal years of missing recruiting targets and fiddled away as the Army level fell 33,000 in two years (a drop of 6.8%) to the lowest full-time force since 1940.

For this alone, Milley should be reviled and despised by any and all who love the United States Army.

CAVGrunt97

11:18p, 11/25/23

Two years? You understand that two years is a blink of an eye at the strategic level right? So, after year one's failure the 4 Star General responsible for recruiting (the TRADOC CG) would have recommended some changes, or maybe not because it was literally just one year. Then, after year two, TRADOC would then make those changes. Only after 3-4 years of poor numbers would the Army consider making substantive changes to a system that has generally been successful for 50 years. But sure, it's Milley's fault.

74OA

10:40a, 11/26/23

In reply to CAVGrunt97

Exactly. Milley was selected to be JCS Chairman because he had been an excellent Army COS. That he had the integrity and courage to stand up to Trump further proves he was the right man for the job.

CT'97

11:54a, 11/26/23

In reply to WolfCall

You have no knowledge of which you speak. Go back to the politics board where you will fit right in.

WolfCall

8:52p, 12/10/23

In reply to CAVGrunt97

CAVGrunt97 said:
Two years? You understand that two years is a blink of an eye at the strategic level right? So, after year one's failure the 4 Star General responsible for recruiting (the TRADOC CG) would have recommended some changes, or maybe not because it was literally just one year. Then, after year two, TRADOC would then make those changes. Only after 3-4 years of poor numbers would the Army consider making substantive changes to a system that has generally been successful for 50 years. But sure, it's Milley's fault.

It's Milley's fault. Commanders get the blame for abysmal failures.

WolfCall

8:55p, 12/10/23

In reply to CT'97

CT'97 said:
You have no knowledge of which you speak. Go back to the politics board where you will fit right in.

Recruiting has been a disaster; Milley was in charge and gets the blame. It is not political to blame the commanding officer for failures.

The U.S. Army officer corps may be pro-Milley; the NCO's are anti-Milley. Talk to the NCOs who have been leaving over the last few years who had 5 - 10 years of service and ask why they are leaving and what they think of Milley.

CT'97

9:56a, 12/11/23

In reply to WolfCall

I know plenty of NCO's, many of whom are hitting retirement age. Most aren't talking about Milley at all. You know what they think about the recruiting troubles? Trump and his MAGA crowd spouting lies about the military being "woke" is doing more harm than anything right now.

Noblemen06

11:37a, 12/11/23

In reply to CT'97

CT'97 said:
I know plenty of NCO's, many of whom are hitting retirement age. Most aren't talking about Milley at all. You know what they think about the recruiting troubles? Trump and his MAGA crowd spouting lies about the military being "woke" is doing more harm than anything right now.

I star most of your posts on this thread (including this one) and agree with you on almost all points. However, we have a GO corps that feeds into the hysteria about "wokeness" in the military, even if they don't intend to.

I find the "woke military" claim to be unfounded in my experience (17 years and counting now) working day to day with officers and enlisted alike. I haven't experienced "wokeness" in how we build teams, select people for assignments/promotions, or any of the big specters that get thrown out there. I've been a part of world-class units and recently (in the "woke era" if you will) commanded two squadrons where individual effort, contribution, and merit ruled the day.

However, the DoD has gone all-in on "anti-woke dog whistle" DEI (now DEIA) in areas that go far beyond building stronger, more talented teams. An example is DEI-related jargon injected in places where it is jarringly obvious. I just read the USARPAC theater estimate, which is a fantastic document for its purpose...then DEI language gets crammed into the end. Weird and unnecessary for its intent, unless you prescribe to a certain ideology.

Add to that, this guy is about to get a star, and he is not a unicorn: Dear white colonel … we must address our blind spots around race (airforcetimes.com) He took command of a wing just a few months after that article was written. Would you want to be a group or squadron commander under his leadership? How can that article be anything less than "anti-woke" ammunition...and it was published in the AF Times (no one cares about the "views don't reflect the Air Force" statement in the bottom or that the AF Times isn't a DoD publication).

We can't have our head in the sand that there are narratives out there that hurt our recruiting and retention efforts (as you point out) AND that the services are feeding in to, even if they don't intend to. The military is creating its own bogeyman in that regard and a certain subset of voices are using those examples to paint with a broad brush.

Noblemen06

11:39a, 12/11/23

I'll add that of the many NCOs and SNCOs I know that are leaving service, I haven't had a single one tell me it was for political or ideological concerns. Usually it is either retirement or taking their GI bill to pursue their bigger plans in life. So, I second CT97's take, for the most part.

CT'97

10:51a, 12/12/23

In reply to Noblemen06

Thank you Noblemen06, I agree with you that we need to get out of our own way.
The military is a microcosm of society. Everything present in society is present I our fighting force.
Overall it's a meritocracy that's focused on being an effective fighting force.
I have no doubt that if we were in a shooting war recruiting wouldn't be an issue.

CAVGrunt97

9:18p, 12/12/23

In reply to WolfCall

WolfCall said:
CAVGrunt97 said:
Two years? You understand that two years is a blink of an eye at the strategic level right? So, after year one's failure the 4 Star General responsible for recruiting (the TRADOC CG) would have recommended some changes, or maybe not because it was literally just one year. Then, after year two, TRADOC would then make those changes. Only after 3-4 years of poor numbers would the Army consider making substantive changes to a system that has generally been successful for 50 years. But sure, it's Milley's fault.
It's Milley's fault. Commanders get the blame for abysmal failures.

Neither the Chief of Staff of the Army, nor the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is a commander….

Texarkanaag69

3:57p, 1/15/24

In reply to CT'97

CT'97 said:
CanyonAg77 said:
Quote:
Try reading up on the Able Archer incident and see how close we came to nuclear war in 83

Interesting choice of examples, as part of the reason it did not go to war was a Soviet Double Agent working for MI6.

Also, no one back channeled, and no one was going against Presidential orders.
That's the point, without back channel communications we were probably minutes from killing everyone on earth. Let that sink in. It certainly had an impact on Reagan. So much so that he completely changed how he was dealing with the Soviets.

Back channel communications happen all the time. They are a legitimate and important.

CT'97, my son is also C/O '97 and is an 06 with 5Th SFGroup. He seems to hold Gen Milley in high regard. Have you run into other opinions about him?

FCBlitz

11:14a, 1/17/24

Funny. I had the extreme privilege to work with some marines that were there, at the time when the bomber clacked off and killed those marines.

These marine were disgusted with all 360 degrees of the whole deal. Any honorable flag officer would have done the honorable thing and resigned.

Miley is a traitor.

CT'97

3:51p, 1/17/24

In reply to Texarkanaag69

I personally didn't work with him or even meet him. Your son's comments match what I have heard from those who have as well as those on this board who have worked with or know him. But none of my defense on him has to do with him as a person, really it was all about his role as CJCS and what is appropriate for that person to do.

bigtruckguy3500

1:44p, 1/22/24

In reply to FCBlitz

FCBlitz said:
Funny. I had the extreme privilege to work with some marines that were there, at the time when the bomber clacked off and killed those marines.

These marine were disgusted with all 360 degrees of the whole deal. Any honorable flag officer would have done the honorable thing and resigned.

Miley is a traitor.

What event are you talking about? Also, what ranks were these Marines?

FCBlitz

7:44p, 1/24/24

In reply to bigtruckguy3500

bigtruckguy3500 said:
FCBlitz said:
Funny. I had the extreme privilege to work with some marines that were there, at the time when the bomber clacked off and killed those marines.

These marine were disgusted with all 360 degrees of the whole deal. Any honorable flag officer would have done the honorable thing and resigned.

Miley is a traitor.
What event are you talking about? Also, what ranks were these Marines?

1.) Afghanistan withdrawal 2.) Back channel communication with China.

As for the question of ranks…..doesn't matter. They were boots on the ground when the bomb clacked off and killed our guys. I later worked with them in the IC and listened to their stories. As for being the gate keeper for back channeling with China……that wasn't Miley's role. Sure it happens but not at his level. Let's flip this. If Miley was a Chinese General and he put himself in a position to warn Biden of an impending attack and was discovered. What do you think XI would do? Yeah that is right.

My brother was Gen. Schwarzkopf attach during PG1. He said not one of those General and supporting Flag officer would have put a plan out to do what they did. If it was being forced politically then they all would have resigned.

None of this will suffice. The rapid pullout, the trade of billions of military hardware for reconciliation with the Taliban, the arrival of CHINESE teams for material exploration of the hardware was certainly great for the Chinese, our partners in the region were left exposed, we left Afghan allies and their that were killed…..

……heck I can go on and on and on. Nothing points favorably to Miley. Yes. He is considered to be a traitor by many.

Strong Men Armed

7:26p, 1/25/24

And another forum ruined by the flat-earthers' rumor, innuendo, and character defamation. Not surprising… the first question they asked about General Eric Smith '87 when he was nominated to be the Commandant of the Marine Corps was,"Is he woke?"

I wonder how many of these conspiracy theorists actually served and have a DD-214 with an honorable discharge, and how many never served but come here because they spent some time in the Corps of Cadets and actually thought it counts as military service?

I have total confidence that General Miley served honorably and with distinction, from the day he was commissioned until the day he retired. The Afghanistan withdrawal happened on his watch, but JCS recommended a different plan. Having been given a lawful order otherwise, they carried it out to the best of their ability. That what professionals do.

Our military is the best example we have of a national meritocracy. Perfect? No. Name something better.

FCBlitz

7:57p, 1/25/24

In reply to Strong Men Armed

Strong Men Armed said:
And another forum ruined by the flat-earthers' rumor, innuendo, and character defamation. Not surprising… the first question they asked about General Eric Smith '87 when he was nominated to be the Commandant of the Marine Corps was,"Is he woke?"

I wonder how many of these conspiracy theorists actually served and have a DD-214 with an honorable discharge, and how many never served but come here because they spent some time in the Corps of Cadets and actually thought it counts as military service?

I have total confidence that General Miley served honorably and with distinction, from the day he was commissioned until the day he retired. The Afghanistan withdrawal happened on his watch, but JCS recommended a different plan. Having been given a lawful order otherwise, they carried it out to the best of their ability. That what professionals do.

Our military is the best example we have of a national meritocracy. Perfect? No. Name something better.

There were other plans on the table to bring that military hardware home. Not sure why I am considered a flat earther just because my judgement holds Miley accountable. I work in the IC community and have been embedded in support of different missions. These marines were boots there when our security partners, the Taliban lost control and allowed a suicide bomber through. They heard the explosive, had to manage that situation and were extremely unhappy to have young soldiers needlessly die. Remember the US Military had total control of the base……but we left all of our stuff and gifted it to the Taliban for reconciliation. You keep saying he was under orders. Miley had the opportunity to resign and let some other doof bag be stupid. Miley wanted to be the guy…..

Let's say it was all approved and was the actual recommendation of central command…..individuals should have been severely reprimanded for how the withdrawal was executed.

1.) there was no rush to leave
2.) had situational control and gave it up
3.) the plan centered around a new partnership and cooperation with the Taliban.
4.) 10 service folks died
5.) Had no plan to evacuate Afghanistan military, translators and their families and many were killed and tortured.
6.) presented a gold mine of material exploitation for the Chinese.

…….again I can go on and on. Let's say Miley is a stand up guy. All of this occurred under his watch and no one he or his staff were reprimanded.

74OA

8:21p, 1/25/24