The (New) Global Methodist Church - Page 6

The Chicken Ranch

9:07p, 11/15/22

88Warrior said:
UTExan said:
notex said:
It is utterly sad to see the rump UMC that is being left for dead/the radical unchristian management that is running it off a cliff.

It will fold at some point in the next 10 years I predict, as it is financially going to be unable to pay the bills. Since doctrine/dogma don't matter to them I wonder if there will be a combined "GLBTQ+ unity church" of some sort which involves a remnant of Presby./UMC/Episcopalian denominations that were devoured by them.

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.#lefties
— David Burge (@iowahawkblog) November 10, 2015

That's one reason they want such high exit fees and to retain property control. Selling off a lot of the church property would pay the program, pension and medical insurance costs for the remaining clergy and staff as the UMC continues to shrink rapidly.

The ones I feel for are those small churches that want to disaffiliate from the UMC but can't because of the exit fees. Our church (Asbury-Tulsa) is fortunate/blessed to have the resources to leave but a lot of others don't…

It's the same for small town Presbyterian Churches. Many would probably leave for the ECO or EPC as soon as they can, but the exit fees are too daunting. It's criminal what these people have done to our churches.

My only comfort is knowing that God will deal with these smug Pharisees eventually.

Jabin

7:49p, 11/16/22

Why don't the conservative members of those churches just leave, buy an older church, and start anew? Then there'd be no exit fee, would there?

TresPuertas

8:24p, 11/16/22

In reply to Jabin

That's actually a pretty good question. Even if it was in some sort of rental space I would probably follow the More Bible-based members and leaders of my church wherever they go.

I'm fairly certain though there's some legal ramifications that Theyd have to deal with. starting a new churche isn't just exactly cheap or easy I'd imagine

Jabin

8:50p, 11/16/22

In reply to TresPuertas

It's not that expensive or difficult (churches do it all the time), and it would seem to be far less expensive than an exit fee.

UTExan

10:51p, 11/16/22

In reply to Jabin

Jabin said:
Why don't the conservative members of those churches just leave, buy an older church, and start anew? Then there'd be no exit fee, would there?

Or they could leave en masse, dissolving the church, then offer to rent the old church property from the Conference until they saved enough to buy the property from the Conference which needs the cash.

It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”

OnlyForNow

4:23a, 11/17/22

In reply to UTExan

That's what was thrown around in some private circles at my UMC.

AGC

6:05a, 11/17/22

In reply to UTExan

UTExan said:
Jabin said:
Why don't the conservative members of those churches just leave, buy an older church, and start anew? Then there'd be no exit fee, would there?

Or they could leave en masse, dissolving the church, then offer to rent the old church property from the Conference until they saved enough to buy the property from the Conference which needs the cash.

The Church of England has been unwilling to sell unused property or fixtures to conservative congregations, preferring instead to sell it to Muslims. I doubt they'd fare better here given the pettiness of exit fees.

one MEEN Ag

8:08a, 11/17/22

In reply to AGC

AGC said:
UTExan said:
Jabin said:
Why don't the conservative members of those churches just leave, buy an older church, and start anew? Then there'd be no exit fee, would there?

Or they could leave en masse, dissolving the church, then offer to rent the old church property from the Conference until they saved enough to buy the property from the Conference which needs the cash.

The Church of England has been unwilling to sell unused property or fixtures to conservative congregations, preferring instead to sell it to Muslims. I doubt they'd fare better here given the pettiness of exit fees.

Thats not going to go over well on judgement day.

Txducker

9:16a, 11/17/22

Mount Pleasant, TX, Tennison UMC had a vote to break off and did not get the votes to separate. I don't remember the details, but they needed either 2/3 or 3/4 majority and failed. I do remember them having more than 50%. Their pastor told the congregation that he will be leaving them and not staying in the UMC. I am not surprised by his decision, as I have known him since 1994 and used to be a member with him in a different UMC before he was a pastor. He is a person who has contributed significantly in multiple ways to the church and has to be a sad season for him. The town was conservative back when I lived there. I bet lack of money and/or losing the church building factored into the decisions. I would bet if money was not an issue, more small churches would be leaving.

OnlyForNow

9:20a, 11/17/22

In reply to Txducker

Some what.

Unfortunately, some churches were told if you vote to disaffiliate you hate gays and you're making the church an unwelcoming space.

Obviously, this wasn't done outright, but was there for the interpretation.

I personally think the pastor(s) should have completely removed themselves from this entirely and leave it 100% up to the congregation; their opinion is tied to their paycheck and their retirement.

Txducker

9:35a, 11/17/22

In reply to UTExan

UTExan said:

Or they could leave en masse, dissolving the church, then offer to rent the old church property from the Conference until they saved enough to buy the property from the Conference which needs the cash.

I think this is the tactical solution for smaller rural churches to get their buildings back. It is a long term several year play which is hard to swallow for older members who do not have that kind of time. It may take 2-5 years of negative cash flows before the conference gives up on the building and is willing to sell the property. The church has a history of selling dying churches (Ranger, TX as an example). The resale value of the church will not be good for the conference. Old buildings with high maintenance costs, the value is probably in the land itself. The conference is going to take a huge financial hit with the larger wealthier churches leaving. They cannot afford to to hold onto to churches that are losing money. They also cannot afford the high maintenance costs of old empty churches and will eventually have to sell at a deep discount.

Txducker

10:10a, 11/17/22

In reply to OnlyForNow

OnlyForNow said:
Some what.

Unfortunately, some churches were told if you vote to disaffiliate you hate gays and you're making the church an unwelcoming space.

Obviously, this wasn't done outright, but was there for the interpretation.

I personally think the pastor(s) should have completely removed themselves from this entirely and leave it 100% up to the congregation; their opinion is tied to their paycheck and their retirement.

Churches who worry about the label "hating gays" will not survive anyway (imploding UMC as an example) and will continue to stray farther away from biblical teachings. If that is their thinking and they are living in fear of what those outside the church think about them, then they acting opposite and in stark contrast to what the early disciples and church leaders were going through at the the beginning of Christianity. If the pastors are also in this line of thinking, then they are probably not a good fit for more conservative biblical doctrine that the GMC will be known for.

Jabin

10:45a, 11/17/22

In reply to Txducker

Txducker said:
UTExan said:

Or they could leave en masse, dissolving the church, then offer to rent the old church property from the Conference until they saved enough to buy the property from the Conference which needs the cash.
I think this is the tactical solution for smaller rural churches to get their buildings back. It is a long term several year play which is hard to swallow for older members who do not have that kind of time. It may take 2-5 years of negative cash flows before the conference gives up on the building and is willing to sell the property. The church has a history of selling dying churches (Ranger, TX as an example). The resale value of the church will not be good for the conference. Old buildings with high maintenance costs, the value is probably in the land itself. The conference is going to take a huge financial hit with the larger wealthier churches leaving. They cannot afford to to hold onto to churches that are losing money. They also cannot afford the high maintenance costs of old empty churches and will eventually have to sell at a deep discount.

Exactly. All the "leverage" in these negotiations is on the side of the individual congregations. I don't understand why they're acting like the denomination has any leverage at all.

Fishing Fools

12:54p, 11/17/22

Many people are angry and frustrated with "why do we have to be the ones to leave". That's understandable, but it's in their best interest not to associate with unbiblical behavior.

A friend sent me this about Churches in Texas:

Texas does not recognize the trustee clause, so the UMC can't take their property. However, to avoid a lengthy legal battle, they can leave by following p. 2332 (?). They vote to disaffiliate, pay their last year's and present year's apportionments, and leave with all their assets. For the small churches who would have trouble paying the apportionments, the GMC has set up a help fund to assist them.

Aggieland Proud

3:16p, 11/17/22

In reply to Txducker

Very similar situation as what happened at FUMC Huntsville. I was told the vote was about 59% to disaffiliate. A 67% vote was required. A rather influential person has already started a new Church that will be Global affiliated. The pastor had made it known he wanted the congregation to go Global. With the vote failing, the pastor sent a note out on Monday that he was leaving the congregation immediately. Don't know he plans but I'm guessing he's probably around 50, so not a spring chicken to be leaving.

OnlyForNow

5:42p, 11/17/22

In reply to Aggieland Proud

I respect that move though.

aggieband 83

7:43p, 11/17/22

In reply to Fishing Fools

Fishing Fools said:
Texas does not recognize the trustee clause, so the UMC can't take their property. However, to avoid a lengthy legal battle, they can leave by following p. 2332 (?). They vote to disaffiliate, pay their last year's and present year's apportionments, and leave with all their assets. For the small churches who would have trouble paying the apportionments, the GMC has set up a help fund to assist them.

This is exactly what my home church is planning on doing.

Aggie Band not the easiest but the Best.

Pro Sandy

9:36p, 11/17/22

In reply to Aggieland Proud

Looking at Facebook, it wasn't the senior pastor but Director of Contemporary Worship & Technology and Director of Children's Ministry. He's going into sales.

Aggieland Proud

5:30a, 11/18/22

In reply to Pro Sandy

Don't know about the other staff but Rev Wintermute has resigned and is being temporarily replaced by Rev Whitaker until January.

The Chicken Ranch

6:13a, 11/18/22

In reply to Fishing Fools

Fishing Fools said:
Many people are angry and frustrated with "why do we have to be the ones to leave". That's understandable, but it's in their best interest not to associate with unbiblical behavior.

A friend sent me this about Churches in Texas:

Texas does not recognize the trustee clause, so the UMC can't take their property. However, to avoid a lengthy legal battle, they can leave by following p. 2332 (?). They vote to disaffiliate, pay their last year's and present year's apportionments, and leave with all their assets. For the small churches who would have trouble paying the apportionments, the GMC has set up a help fund to assist them.

This! It's the nuclear clause and I don't know why more rural churches don't use it. Vote to change your bylaws, and tell the UMC, or PCUSA that you are no longer affiliated with them.

Make them sue you to stay, not the other way around. If they sue you, you are in much better position to negotiate.

MAROON

9:04a, 11/18/22

In reply to aggieband 83

aggieband 83 said:
Fishing Fools said:
Texas does not recognize the trustee clause, so the UMC can't take their property. However, to avoid a lengthy legal battle, they can leave by following p. 2332 (?). They vote to disaffiliate, pay their last year's and present year's apportionments, and leave with all their assets. For the small churches who would have trouble paying the apportionments, the GMC has set up a help fund to assist them.
This is exactly what my home church is planning on doing.

my church did it - took PCUSA to court and won. All the little church's can use our case as precedent. We did end up still paying $1mil - that was a decision as I understand it that was made because we were headed to Appeals Court and then probably ultimately the Texas Supreme Court. The slight risk of a loss and the certainty of some serious legal fees (and years of uncertainty and division) resulted in that # - plus I think a feeling that our years in the PCUSA did give us some obligation to provide a certain amount for the retirement fund for former pastors.

our case was pretty much a slam dunk. The Deed was on our church's name (not in that of PCUSA), PCUSA had never contributed one cent to the purchase of property, building of campus, etc.

What do you boys want for breakfast BBQ ?.....OK Chili.

aggieband 83

6:33p, 11/18/22

In reply to MAROON

The deeds on our church and property still say ______ Methodist Church. The word "United" Methodist is not on the deed. Generations ago when the property was purchased, our church was in the Methodist denomination. United Methodist denomination did not exist. Our deed was never changed when we became United Methodist. This is an out for many churches to take advantage off.

Aggie Band not the easiest but the Best.

The Chicken Ranch

7:36a, 11/19/22

In reply to MAROON

Understand, and I think I know what church you are referring to.

Because of your case, a church can simply just leave and disaffiliate. Make the UMC or PCUSA sue you

AW73

2:49p, 11/21/22

28.6% of our church's members were present and voting at our disaffiliation vote, which means that 72.4% of our membership did not vote. Of those voting, 66.3% voted to disaffiliate, which does not meet the 2/3 majority criterion. Either two more present and voting to disaffiliate or one of the nay votes switching would have tipped the scales the other way.

The closeness of the vote gets your attention, but the elephant in the room is that 72% of the members did not vote. I don't know how that compares to other churches we heard about who voted >90% to leave, but I would not be surprised if their decisions were also made by a similar minority of voting members.

...and the real lesson is that if you don't like the direction of the church, you are free to leave and go somewhere else. It is your soul and your own personal decision and you shouldn't let anyone else get a vote.

AW73

5:59p, 11/21/22

…oops..71.4%

AW73

Aggieland Proud

6:24p, 12/3/22

The Texas Annual Conference (Houston to Texarkana) approved disaffiliation of 294 congregations from the UMC. That's 49% of the current churches in the Texas Annual Conference. Becomes effective Jan 1, 2023. First Methodist Bryan, Christ Church in College Station as well as The Woodlands Methodist, are included in the 294 number that have now disaffiliated. Will have to find a complete listing at some point. I believe the Central Conference (DFW area) is scheduled for their charge conference vote in mid-January?

The Chicken Ranch

8:12a, 12/4/22

Community Presbyterian Church in Port Aransas has left the PC(USA) and joined the ECO.

Christ is prevailing.

jamesf

6:56p, 12/5/22

In reply to Aggieland Proud

Aggieland Proud said:
The Texas Annual Conference (Houston to Texarkana) approved disaffiliation of 294 congregations from the UMC. That's 49% of the current churches in the Texas Annual Conference. Becomes effective Jan 1, 2023. First Methodist Bryan, Christ Church in College Station as well as The Woodlands Methodist, are included in the 294 number that have now disaffiliated. Will have to find a complete listing at some point. I believe the Central Conference (DFW area) is scheduled for their charge conference vote in mid-January?

The list of churches is found here starting on page 48.

OnlyForNow

8:59p, 12/5/22

In reply to jamesf

So do y'all think that the woodlands church will pay their 1.6 million dollar owed apportionment?

88Warrior

9:11p, 12/5/22

In reply to OnlyForNow

OnlyForNow said:
So do y'all think that the woodlands church will pay their 1.6 million dollar owed apportionment?

If they want to leave they will..

malenurse

9:17p, 12/5/22

In reply to 88Warrior

When Grace UMC (Katy) stopped paying their apportionments more than three years ago, that money was put in an earnest money account. That money was released to the General Conference when Grace left.

We felt that the money was always owed to the conference, withholding the money was the only way to get their attention.

It was well north of 7 figures.

The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.

OnlyForNow

9:20p, 12/5/22

In reply to malenurse

It's ridiculous that the churches are blackmailed into this anyways.

If by the giving of the church they have to devote that amount of money to outreach/missions/etc (not for use for the betterment of the church itself) but they got to choose the avenue for the expenditure of the money, I'd be more in favor of it.

88Warrior

9:38p, 12/5/22

In reply to malenurse

malenurse said:
When Grace UMC (Katy) stopped paying their apportionments more than three years ago, that money was put in an earnest money account. That money was released to the General Conference when Grace left.

We felt that the money was always owed to the conference, withholding the money was the only way to get their attention.

It was well north of 7 figures.

Agreed. It cost our church (Asbury-Tulsa) close to $4M to leave…. When all the traditional churches dollars leave the UMC will quickly die off…

The Chicken Ranch

5:58a, 12/6/22

In reply to OnlyForNow

OnlyForNow said:
It's ridiculous that the churches are blackmailed into this anyways.

If by the giving of the church they have to devote that amount of money to outreach/missions/etc (not for use for the betterment of the church itself) but they got to choose the avenue for the expenditure of the money, I'd be more in favor of it.

Agreed. It is extortion, and many small town churches cannot afford it. Same thing happened in PCUSA. And because the small, less affluent churches cannot afford to leave, they die quickly because people aren't on board with the leftist theology of the denomination. The devil is truly running some of these denominations now.

TexAgs1992

8:26a, 12/6/22

In reply to OnlyForNow

OnlyForNow said:
So do y'all think that the woodlands church will pay their 1.6 million dollar owed apportionment?

Yes. They cannot wait to disaffiliate from what I gather.