Recognizing the office of PETER in the NT (very long)

3,484 Views | 39 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Catag94
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TLDR: The Biblical case for Peter having an office of unique leadership among the apostles and for the church is very strong but most people just miss it completely. Below is just scratching the surface.

eta: Simon was his name. PETER was the TITLE Simon was given.
----------------------

In addition to historical support, there is significant Biblical and NT support for Simon Peter being the first leader of the Christian Church. Catholics hold that Simon Peter was given a unique role (office) among the Apostles and for the Church making Peter the first Pope. Protestant's reject this claim. They will often make the case that if Peter was indeed given this type of authority or office we should see it clearly somewhere in Scripture but we don't. Protestants will make the case that nowhere in the NT is the word "Pope" found, and they see no evidence of Peter having a unique authority among the Apostles - and that all apostles shared equally in the powers to bind and loose given to them in Matthew 18:18. What I am putting forward is that the evidence for Peter's unique role among the Apostles and in the Church is everywhere in the NT so much so that most people reading the Bible today completely miss the evidence altogether.

Here is what I propose doing as a Biblical thought experiment or exercise:

What if every single time you read the name Peter in the NT you read "PETER"? NOT Peter as the name of a man, but rather as a title of significance given to Simon by Jesus? Most people casually read "Peter" in the same way they would read a name like James, John, Mark, or Joe. However, reading Peter's name this way is to gloss over the meaning of Simon's new title as if the two are interchangeable. The two are not exactly interchangeable. Almost the first thing Jesus tells Simon is that he will be called PETER (this is long before Simon's confession that Jesus is the Christ). I think for us to realize of the significance of what God was doing by giving Simon a new title/name, we need to do something similar by replacing the name Peter with something different. For example, I will use all caps to help make the distinction, but you could use "the ROCK" or "PROTOS" or "the CHIEF" or "insert your own name/title". The point is to help bring clarity to what is being conveyed by the NT writers.

Jesus never calls Simon by the name of Peter in the Bible, and the ONLY disciple that Jesus ever singles out in any of the Gospels and blesses by name is Simon, and this is done in all four Gospels. When the Apostles refer to PETER, they are not just referencing a nickname like the "Sons of Thunder" or Bubba, or something like calling John by Jack. The Apostles understood the significance of the title PETER, and so did the early church including St. Paul. Referring to Simon as PETER would be more like calling the president "Mr. President" instead of their given name. Replacing Peter with "PETER" or "PROTOS" would help the reader gain some of the meaning being conveyed with our 2,000-year removed reading comprehension of the NT writers and early church.
-------------------------------

The Scriptural Case for Peter as Pope:
First, all four gospel writers make it explicitly clear that Simon is chosen and named as PETER.
  • Matt 4:18: "He saw two brothers, Simon who is called PETER and Andrew his brother,"
  • Mark 3:16: He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name PETER)"
  • Luke 5:8: But when Simon PETER saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."
  • John 1:42: "You are Simon Son of John. You shall be called PETER."

In every single list where the twelve are named - Simon "who is called PETER" is always listed first. Sometimes PETER is the only apostle named with the others being grouped together as "PETER and the eleven" or "PETER and the disciples". In Matthew, PETER is specifically named as the first, or PROTOS, which means chief in Greek. There are no lists or examples that exclude PETER.

In Matthew Jesus blesses Simon and bestows on him the title/name PETER which means Rock, and then specifically gives PETER the keys to the kingdom of Heaven with the powers to bind and loose.
Quote:

Matt 16:18: "And I tell you, you are PETER, and on this very rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you (singular) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you (singular) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you (singular) loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (See also Isaiah 22:21)
PETER is the only disciple to walk on water. In Matt 17 Jesus has PETER go fishing to catch the miraculous fish with the coin in its mouth to pay the temple tax for Jesus but notice how Jesus also includes the temple tax specifically for PETER as well, and not the others.

In the Gospel of Luke we come to the Last Supper and after Jesus instituted the Eucharist Jesus warns that one of the disciples would betray him. The disciples began to question one another, and a dispute arose about who would betray Jesus. At the same time a dispute also arose about which one of them would be regarded as the greatest. Notice that Jesus does NOT answer them that they would all be equally the greatest. In contrast, Jesus declares in Luke 22 that Simon (who would be called PETER) would be their leader, although a servant leader. Sometimes we can miss the complete context because the non-inspired chapter breaks and headings interrupt and unconsciously influence our interpretation and comprehension.

This is what is says in Luke Chapter 22 beginning at verse 21:
Quote:

"But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!" And they began to question one another, which of them could it be who was going to do this. A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. For who is greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves. You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, and I assign to you, as my father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you all (plural), that he might sift you all (plural) like wheat, but I have prayed for you (Simon) that your faith may not fail. And when you (Simon) have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
So Jesus answers their dispute on the eve of his crucifixion by telling them all that Simon would be their leader and the one to strengthen and unify them. Jesus tells the disciples they each have their role and authority (thrones), but that Simon is to be the greatest among them. Jesus tells them that he has prayed specifically for Simon (PETER) that Simon's faith may not fail.

If you replace Peter with PETER or PROTOS in your reading throughout the New Testament, it would be synonymous with replacing Peter with POPE. Today's sola-scriptura Christians have great difficulty seeing this because they read the Bible with a modern 21st Century lens and worldview and see Peter as a common name. Early Christians understood PETER's title signifying his office, and they understood PETER to mean something more than how we read the name Peter today.

In Mark 16 we see the Angel commanding Mary Magdalene & the other women to go and tell "his disciples and PETER" that the resurrected Jesus is going before them to Galilee. PETER hears the news and runs to the tomb to see for himself, and John waits for PETER before entering the tomb.

Now let's turn to John 21 where we see PETER decides to go fishing and six disciples join him but they are unable to catch a single fish all night. At daybreak Jesus commands them to cast their net again and they catch so many fish that the seven of them together cannot haul the fish in. But then at the command of Jesus, Simon PETER is able to single handedly haul the net of 153 large fish by himself, and the net was not torn (word for schism). They share breakfast with Jesus and when they are finished Jesus turns to Simon PETER and singles him out. Jesus asks Simon if he loves him more than these and commands Simon to feed his lambs, tend his sheep, feed his sheep. This is not simply a restoration of PETER, but this is Jesus commissioning PETER as the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock. It is the prayer of Jesus that his Church be unified and not torn, which John 21 shows us this beautifully.
-----------------------

In Acts we see PETER step into his central, visible role leading the Apostles and the early church on behalf of Jesus and everything in the name of Jesus Christ. PETER exhibits primacy, leadership, and authority among the apostles and over the whole church and even the Sanhedrin documented by the early church. In Acts chapter 1 we see it was PETER who stood up among the Apostles, Mary, and about 120 people pronouncing the first judgement and recorded action of the post-ascension Church. It was one of Apostolic Succession by choosing Matthias to be numbered with the 11 apostles and fill the office Judas vacated. At Pentecost it was PETER, standing with the eleven, who gives the first sermon leading to the baptism of about 3,000 souls.

It was PETER who healed the lame beggar in Acts 3, and PETER who addressed the crowds teaching in the Temple in Solomon's Portico. It was PETER who boldly faced the Sanhedrin and spoke against them and displayed his authority in the name of Jesus. It was PETER who told Ananias he was not lying to man but to God immediately after which Ananias died. Three hours later it was PETER who again pronounced God's judgment on Sapphira when she likewise lied to him and therefore lied to the Holy Spirit. In Acts 5 the people even carried out the sick and laid them on cots and mats, that as PETER came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them that they might be healed.

It was "PETER and the apostles", not "Simon and the apostles". It was PETER who went to Samaria to lay hands on the newly baptized that they would receive the Holy Spirit. PETER healed the paralyzed Aeneas. It was PETER who went to Tabitha and raised her from the dead by the name of Jesus. In Acts 10 the Angel sent Cornelius to bring "Simon, who is called PETER", and while PETER was speaking to the Gentiles the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles (uncircumcised). PETER, without consulting the other Apostles, commanded that the Gentiles be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

At the Jerusalem Council where the apostles and elders were gathered to consider an important issue facing the Church and after there had been much debate - it was PETER that that stood up and ended the debate. PETER declared that "in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe." And with PETER's declaration all the assembly fell silent. PETER ended the debate and the Church listened to PETER and implemented what PETER declared in the name of the Holy Spirit. PETER was rescued from prison by an angel of the Lord who led PETER through the city's iron gate, which opened of its own power.

Reading the first 15 chapters of Acts we see PETER in a powerful role in the Church. Nowhere is any other apostle mentioned doing miracles on par with PETER. PETER speaks for the Holy Spirit, strikes people dead with a word, raises others from the dead, heals the lame and the sick, and the Bible tells us that people would hope to have PETER's shadow fall on them to be healed (not that of the eleven). PETER is clearly seen as something special in the early Church, and I would say shows PETER strengthening his brothers.
---------------------

So now let's look at the often quoted passage of Paul confronting PETER, and see how would your interpretation or understanding of Galatians 2 might be different if the following is how it was written:
Quote:

(Gal 2:7-…) "but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the
uncircumcised, just as PROTOS had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through PROTOS for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles), and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James, PROTOS and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship….
But when PROTOS came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came and drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him (PROTOS) the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. …"
In Galatians 2, Paul is highlighting the fact that he even opposed The PROTOS (or Chief) when PETER's actions were contrary to the teachings declared from the Lord and set forth by PETER himself and then by the church in ACTS 11. Paul is rightly calling out PETER because of his actions, but NOT because of his teachings. PETER's teachings were in fact correct. Also, the fact that Paul is making the point that he even confronted PETER is highlighting the fact that there was something special about PETER.
------------------

I think the case that PETER was chosen by Christ to lead the apostles and his Church is undeniable, and the Scriptures bear strong witness to his special role. Cheers!

FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Faithful Ag said:

TLDR: The Biblical case for Peter having an office of unique leadership among the apostles and for the church is very strong but most people just miss it completely. Below is just scratching the surface.
----------------------

In addition to historical support, there is significant Biblical and NT support for Simon Peter being the first leader of the Christian Church. Catholics hold that Simon Peter was given a unique role (office) among the Apostles and for the Church making Peter the first Pope. Protestant's reject this claim. They will often make the case that if Peter was indeed given this type of authority or office we should see it clearly somewhere in Scripture but we don't. Protestants will make the case that nowhere in the NT is the word "Pope" found, and they see no evidence of Peter having a unique authority among the Apostles - and that all apostles shared equally in the powers to bind and loose given to them in Matthew 18:18. What I am putting forward is that the evidence for Peter's unique role among the Apostles and in the Church is everywhere in the NT so much so that most people reading the Bible today completely miss the evidence altogether.

Here is what I propose doing as a Biblical thought experiment or exercise:

What if every single time you read the name Peter in the NT you read "PETER"? NOT Peter as the name of a man, but rather as a title of significance given to Simon by Jesus? Most people casually read "Peter" in the same way they would read a name like James, John, Mark, or Joe. However, reading Peter's name this way is to gloss over the meaning of Simon's new title as if the two are interchangeable. The two are not exactly interchangeable. Almost the first thing Jesus tells Simon is that he will be called PETER (this is long before Simon's confession that Jesus is the Christ). I think for us to realize of the significance of what God was doing by giving Simon a new title/name, we need to do something similar by replacing the name Peter with something different. For example, I will use all caps to help make the distinction, but you could use "the ROCK" or "PROTOS" or "the CHIEF" or "insert your own name/title". The point is to help bring clarity to what is being conveyed by the NT writers.

Jesus never calls Simon by the name of Peter in the Bible, and the ONLY disciple that Jesus ever singles out in any of the Gospels and blesses by name is Simon, and this is done in all four Gospels. When the Apostles refer to PETER, they are not just referencing a nickname like the "Sons of Thunder" or Bubba, or something like calling John by Jack. The Apostles understood the significance of the title PETER, and so did the early church including St. Paul. Referring to Simon as PETER would be more like calling the president "Mr. President" instead of their given name. Replacing Peter with "PETER" or "PROTOS" would help the reader gain some of the meaning being conveyed with our 2,000-year removed reading comprehension of the NT writers and early church.
-------------------------------

The Scriptural Case for Peter as Pope:
First, all four gospel writers make it explicitly clear that Simon is chosen and named as PETER.
  • Matt 4:18: "He saw two brothers, Simon who is called PETER and Andrew his brother,"
  • Mark 3:16: He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name PETER)"
  • Luke 5:8: But when Simon PETER saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."
  • John 1:42: "You are Simon Son of John. You shall be called PETER."

In every single list where the twelve are named - Simon "who is called PETER" is always listed first. Sometimes PETER is the only apostle named with the others being grouped together as "PETER and the eleven" or "PETER and the disciples". In Matthew, PETER is specifically named as the first, or PROTOS, which means chief in Greek. There are no lists or examples that exclude PETER.

In Matthew Jesus blesses Simon and bestows on him the title/name PETER which means Rock, and then specifically gives PETER the keys to the kingdom of Heaven with the powers to bind and loose.
Quote:

Matt 16:18: "And I tell you, you are PETER, and on this very rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you (singular) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you (singular) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you (singular) loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (See also Isaiah 22:21)
PETER is the only disciple to walk on water. In Matt 17 Jesus has PETER go fishing to catch the miraculous fish with the coin in its mouth to pay the temple tax for Jesus but notice how Jesus also includes the temple tax specifically for PETER as well, and not the others.

In the Gospel of Luke we come to the Last Supper and after Jesus instituted the Eucharist Jesus warns that one of the disciples would betray him. The disciples began to question one another, and a dispute arose about who would betray Jesus. At the same time a dispute also arose about which one of them would be regarded as the greatest. Notice that Jesus does NOT answer them that they would all be equally the greatest. In contrast, Jesus declares in Luke 22 that Simon (who would be called PETER) would be their leader, although a servant leader. Sometimes we can miss the complete context because the non-inspired chapter breaks and headings interrupt and unconsciously influence our interpretation and comprehension.

This is what is says in Luke Chapter 22 beginning at verse 21:
Quote:

"But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!" And they began to question one another, which of them could it be who was going to do this. A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. For who is greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves. You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, and I assign to you, as my father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you all (plural), that he might sift you all (plural) like wheat, but I have prayed for you (Simon) that your faith may not fail. And when you (Simon) have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
So Jesus answers their dispute on the eve of his crucifixion by telling them all that Simon would be their leader and the one to strengthen and unify them. Jesus tells the disciples they each have their role and authority (thrones), but that Simon is to be the greatest among them. Jesus tells them that he has prayed specifically for Simon (PETER) that Simon's faith may not fail.

If you replace Peter with PETER or PROTOS in your reading throughout the New Testament, it would be synonymous with replacing Peter with POPE. Today's sola-scriptura Christians have great difficulty seeing this because they read the Bible with a modern 21st Century lens and worldview and see Peter as a common name. Early Christians understood PETER's title signifying his office, and they understood PETER to mean something more than how we read the name Peter today.

In Mark 16 we see the Angel commanding Mary Magdalene & the other women to go and tell "his disciples and PETER" that the resurrected Jesus is going before them to Galilee. PETER hears the news and runs to the tomb to see for himself, and John waits for PETER before entering the tomb.

Now let's turn to John 21 where we see PETER decides to go fishing and six disciples join him but they are unable to catch a single fish all night. At daybreak Jesus commands them to cast their net again and they catch so many fish that the seven of them together cannot haul the fish in. But then at the command of Jesus, Simon PETER is able to single handedly haul the net of 153 large fish by himself, and the net was not torn (word for schism). They share breakfast with Jesus and when they are finished Jesus turns to Simon PETER and singles him out. Jesus asks Simon if he loves him more than these and commands Simon to feed his lambs, tend his sheep, feed his sheep. This is not simply a restoration of PETER, but this is Jesus commissioning PETER as the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock. It is the prayer of Jesus that his Church be unified and not torn, which John 21 shows us this beautifully.
-----------------------

In Acts we see PETER step into his central, visible role leading the Apostles and the early church on behalf of Jesus and everything in the name of Jesus Christ. PETER exhibits primacy, leadership, and authority among the apostles and over the whole church and even the Sanhedrin documented by the early church. In Acts chapter 1 we see it was PETER who stood up among the Apostles, Mary, and about 120 people pronouncing the first judgement and recorded action of the post-ascension Church. It was one of Apostolic Succession by choosing Matthias to be numbered with the 11 apostles and fill the office Judas vacated. At Pentecost it was PETER, standing with the eleven, who gives the first sermon leading to the baptism of about 3,000 souls.

It was PETER who healed the lame beggar in Acts 3, and PETER who addressed the crowds teaching in the Temple in Solomon's Portico. It was PETER who boldly faced the Sanhedrin and spoke against them and displayed his authority in the name of Jesus. It was PETER who told Ananias he was not lying to man but to God immediately after which Ananias died. Three hours later it was PETER who again pronounced God's judgment on Sapphira when she likewise lied to him and therefore lied to the Holy Spirit. In Acts 5 the people even carried out the sick and laid them on cots and mats, that as PETER came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them that they might be healed.

It was "PETER and the apostles", not "Simon and the apostles". It was PETER who went to Samaria to lay hands on the newly baptized that they would receive the Holy Spirit. PETER healed the paralyzed Aeneas. It was PETER who went to Tabitha and raised her from the dead by the name of Jesus. In Acts 10 the Angel sent Cornelius to bring "Simon, who is called PETER", and while PETER was speaking to the Gentiles the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles (uncircumcised). PETER, without consulting the other Apostles, commanded that the Gentiles be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

At the Jerusalem Council where the apostles and elders were gathered to consider an important issue facing the Church and after there had been much debate - it was PETER that that stood up and ended the debate. PETER declared that "in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe." And with PETER's declaration all the assembly fell silent. PETER ended the debate and the Church listened to PETER and implemented what PETER declared in the name of the Holy Spirit. PETER was rescued from prison by an angel of the Lord who led PETER through the city's iron gate, which opened of its own power.

Reading the first 15 chapters of Acts we see PETER in a powerful role in the Church. Nowhere is any other apostle mentioned doing miracles on par with PETER. PETER speaks for the Holy Spirit, strikes people dead with a word, raises others from the dead, heals the lame and the sick, and the Bible tells us that people would hope to have PETER's shadow fall on them to be healed (not that of the eleven). PETER is clearly seen as something special in the early Church, and I would say shows PETER strengthening his brothers.
---------------------

So now let's look at the often quoted passage of Paul confronting PETER, and see how would your interpretation or understanding of Galatians 2 might be different if the following is how it was written:
Quote:

(Gal 2:7-…) "but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the
uncircumcised, just as PROTOS had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through PROTOS for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles), and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James, PROTOS and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship….
But when PROTOS came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came and drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him (PROTOS) the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. …"
In Galatians 2, Paul is highlighting the fact that he even opposed The PROTOS (or Chief) when PETER's actions were contrary to the teachings declared from the Lord and set forth by PETER himself and then by the church in ACTS 11. Paul is rightly calling out PETER because of his actions, but NOT because of his teachings. PETER's teachings were in fact correct. Also, the fact that Paul is making the point that he even confronted PETER is highlighting the fact that there was something special about PETER.
------------------

I think the case that PETER was chosen by Christ to lead the apostles and his Church is undeniable, and the Scriptures bear strong witness to his special role. Cheers!


Thanks for sharing this.

Is there anything that we can discern about the use of Simon vs. PETER relative to the presence of Jesus, resurrected or otherwise? I'm asking this because as you know the "keys" passage in Matthew 16 is a reference to Isaiah 22 and the giving of King David's key to Eliakim, the master of the palace while the king is away. Jesus, the heir to King David, speaking proleptically and with Isaiah 22 in mind, is telling us that when he is gone, Simon who will be called PETER, is going to have Jesus's keys and the authority that comes with those keys. As King David's rightful heir, Jesus is free to bestow the keys of his kingdom on whomever he wishes without losing the authority those keys represent and this is precisely what Jesus does in Matthew 16:18-19. Moreover, we can see that it's a "divine delegation", so to speak, because the delegation is directly tied to heaven.

Simon identifies Jesus as the Messiah, which means, among other things, acknowledging his kingship. Christ then shows his kingly authority by bestowing on PETER something only the king could give - the keys of the kingdom of heaven thus making PETER the messianic equivalent of Eliakim.

So, back to my question - is there anything we can draw out about when the Gospels use PETER relative to when they use Simon in terms of Jesus's presence? When Jesus is present, the "king" is not absent and therefore his delegate has no need for the king's keys. But, in Jesus's absence, the master of the palace needs the keys and goes from being Simon to being PETER?
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I think the primary difference is that Simon remained his name and Jesus never calls Simon by the name Peter. However Jesus tells Simon and the disciples that PETER is what Simon is. In fact, I think most of the references to Peter could be read in the same spirit. Again, replace Peter with something different like PROTOS or PETER and you start to see the difference.

Simon was his name. PETER was his title.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Faithful Ag said:

I think the primary difference is that Simon remained his name and Jesus never calls Simon by the name Peter. However Jesus tells Simon and the disciples that PETER is what Simon is. In fact, I think most of the references to Peter could be read in the same spirit. Again, replace Peter with something different like PROTOS or PETER and you start to see the difference.

Simon was his name. PETER was his title.
Maybe I'm not clearly explaining my question.

Simon seems to only be called Simon when Jesus is present. Then it seems like Simon is called Peter once Jesus is gone, emphasizing that the king is no longer present so the master of the palace is now in charge and has the keys, exactly as Jesus foretold.

I suppose this leaves open the question of whether the use of PETER necessarily means the office of Eliakim is invoked until the king's (Jesus's) return. I personally think it's clear that this is exactly what happened for the reasons you described above.

What I am asking is whether we can look at scripture and draw significance by pointing to a demarcation between when Jesus is present vs not present as to when Simon is used and when Peter is used? Maybe not. IDK. But since you have clearly done the work, I was curious if you noticed such a distinction or if it's simply not there.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Yes. I think you are right about the direction you are going and what you are asking (in a sense). I absolutely agree with the Isaiah 22 parallel and that Jesus is making Simon the prime minister of the New Covenant Church (which also points to successive office), but to me that is not necessarily the focus. What I see in the NT is that Jesus NEVER calls Simon by any other name except Simon. He tells Simon he shall be called PETER when he first meets Simon and calls him to follow and become a fisher of men. We see Jesus confer the title in Matt 16:18, but Jesus never calls him PETER - but always Simon.

As far as the apostles go, it is kind of difficult to tell because by the time they are writing the gospels and letters that make up the New Testament Scriptures Simon's name has become PETER for all intents and purposes. What we see in the biblical references to Simon are almost always as PETER or as Simon PETER - except for when Jesus is invoking Simon's name himself. That is why I believe many people today miss the significance of the title PETER. It is because they tend to read Peter as a name and not PETER as a title. It is my view that replacing Peter with POPE would kind of help people see how the early Christians would have understood the meaning of PETER, but this might not be something our Protestant brothers would be willing to indulge. There is so much co-mingling of Simon's name with PETER that the meaning of PETER gets lost in our modern lens of reading and interpretation.

In today's world, if someone refers to the Pope will almost always call him Francis, the Pope, or Holy Father. The only times people will call him Borgoglio or Jorge is if they are speaking of him in a negative light and are trying to distance him from his office as the Pope. In the Bible we almost always see Simon associated with the name PETER because that was the Title of his office and signified his role as the leader of the apostles and church.

So to try and answer your question, I think Simon was always called Simon until later in the ministry or possibly after Jesus Resurrected and left Simon PETER in charge of shepherding the Church. At that point Simon really became PETER and everyone started calling him PETER from that moment on because PETER was his title. By the time the NT was written the church and the world knew Simon as PETER and so that is how he is introduced to us from the very beginning. I guess what I am trying to say is that if Simon were exclusively called Simon and referred to as Simon in the Bible until Ceasarea Philippi or until after the Resurrection the picture would be more clear of what the title PETER really signified.

Unfortunately we tend to miss the significance because to us Peter is just the name of a man.
HarleySpoon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
A concept that is so very important and critical to the Roman catholic faith ought to be very obvious within the gospels and Paul's letters. It should not require much explanation apart from simple and direct scripture. If "you are the rock" is that scripture" then the merits of its meaning should be clear to unbiased readers. Even concepts that are difficult to grasp by human experience and logic….like the nature of the Trinity….are clearly stated in the scriptures…..the resulting debate is only a result of reconciling the concept with our human experience/logic.

Fortunately, we have an historical record of the universal catholic faith and congregations/regional centers of power that developed within that faith during the first four centuries within that universal catholic faith . The creation of the office of papa and within the Roman congregation/region of that faith is well documented and not generally debated.

We are also instructed in the scriptures to question/test the validity of Christian leaders as false or legitimate based upon their teachings . We are told that we can know the nature of the tree by the fruit it produces…..not, simply by the fruit it produces for a season. We all have a responsibility to study the scriptures and know the heart of the Father and ensure our leaders' words and actions align with that perfect and very clear instruction/nature…..even if it is contrary to our own wisdom.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
To elaborate just a little bit more on your question, I think we can see in the 4 gospels below an example of what I am trying to articulate:

Quote:

The Scriptural Case for Peter as Pope:

First, all four gospel writers make it explicitly clear that Simon is chosen and named as PETER.
  • Matt 4:18: "He saw two brothers, Simon who is called PETER and Andrew his brother,"
  • Mark 3:16: He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name PETER)"
  • Luke 5:8: But when Simon PETER saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."
  • John 1:42: "You are Simon Son of John. You shall be called PETER."


Matthew tells the reader that Simon is called PETER (now).
Mark tells us that Jesus gave Simon the name (title) PETER.
Luke introduces him as Simon PETER from the get go.
John tells us that Simon shall be called PETER.


We don't really know if this name change took immediate effect or if it was only after the Resurrection because each of the four gospel writers uses a slightly different way of introducing Simon - but all four of them make it clear that Simon is PETER. Because Simon and PETER are so conflated and co-mingled in their NT use it is difficult for the modern reader to understand the significance. What we do see clearly is that Jesus tells Simon he will or shall be called PETER, but that Jesus continues to call him by his name, Simon and not his title, PETER.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Thanks for your reply. I think you hit upon the question that I'm trying to articulate when you point out that Jesus never directly calls Simon anything other than Simon.
bigcat22
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
One question I've always had is why were the disciples arguing at the Last Supper who among them will be regarded as the greatest (Luke 22) as this would have occurred after the events of Matthew 16 where Peter was supposedly given authority.
BluHorseShu
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
bigcat22 said:

One question I've always had is why were the disciples arguing at the Last Supper who among them will be regarded as the greatest (Luke 22) as this would have occurred after the events of Matthew 16 where Peter was supposedly given authority.
The question of greatness they were arguing I think is separate from the role Christ gave Peter. Jesus saying he was building his Church on 'this rock' wasn't because he was saying Peter was the greatest of them all. Jesus had reasons for choosing Peter. But they all had roles to play, just like all Christians have certain gifts.
Peter certainly had his faults too.

Jesus had his reasons for choosing Peter and I imagine knowing his gifts and temperaments were best suited for serving the Church as his emissary on earth.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BluHorseShu said:

bigcat22 said:

One question I've always had is why were the disciples arguing at the Last Supper who among them will be regarded as the greatest (Luke 22) as this would have occurred after the events of Matthew 16 where Peter was supposedly given authority.
The question of greatness they were arguing I think is separate from the role Christ gave Peter. Jesus saying he was building his Church on 'this rock' wasn't because he was saying Peter was the greatest of them all. Jesus had reasons for choosing Peter. But they all had roles to play, just like all Christians have certain gifts.
Peter certainly had his faults too.

Jesus had his reasons for choosing Peter and I imagine knowing his gifts and temperaments were best suited for serving the Church as his emissary on earth.


Blu, I was going to respond along these lines, but decided to think about it before doing so. You have nicely articulated what I was thinking. "Greatest" isn't necessarily synonymous with "you are going to be the first person to occupy this office/position and hold these keys after I am gone".
BluHorseShu
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

BluHorseShu said:

bigcat22 said:

One question I've always had is why were the disciples arguing at the Last Supper who among them will be regarded as the greatest (Luke 22) as this would have occurred after the events of Matthew 16 where Peter was supposedly given authority.
The question of greatness they were arguing I think is separate from the role Christ gave Peter. Jesus saying he was building his Church on 'this rock' wasn't because he was saying Peter was the greatest of them all. Jesus had reasons for choosing Peter. But they all had roles to play, just like all Christians have certain gifts.
Peter certainly had his faults too.

Jesus had his reasons for choosing Peter and I imagine knowing his gifts and temperaments were best suited for serving the Church as his emissary on earth.


Blu, I was going to respond along these lines, but decided to think about it before doing so. You have nicely articulated what I was thinking. "Greatest" isn't necessarily synonymous with "you are going to be the first person to occupy this office/position and hold these keys after I am gone".
I think you put it more succinctly though. Good job. I do wonder if Jesus was thinking during their argument at the last supper....."I know who's NOT the greatest....Judas, I'm looking your way".....
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

BluHorseShu said:

bigcat22 said:

One question I've always had is why were the disciples arguing at the Last Supper who among them will be regarded as the greatest (Luke 22) as this would have occurred after the events of Matthew 16 where Peter was supposedly given authority.
The question of greatness they were arguing I think is separate from the role Christ gave Peter. Jesus saying he was building his Church on 'this rock' wasn't because he was saying Peter was the greatest of them all. Jesus had reasons for choosing Peter. But they all had roles to play, just like all Christians have certain gifts.
Peter certainly had his faults too.

Jesus had his reasons for choosing Peter and I imagine knowing his gifts and temperaments were best suited for serving the Church as his emissary on earth.


Blu, I was going to respond along these lines, but decided to think about it before doing so. You have nicely articulated what I was thinking. "Greatest" isn't necessarily synonymous with "you are going to be the first person to occupy this office/position and hold these keys after I am gone".
Agreed. We also see many examples of the disciples not clearly understanding the words and actions of Jesus in the present moment. I actually think Luke may be the clearest example of Jesus explaining PETER's role to the disciples, even more clear than Matt 16 and John 21. The disciples are arguing about who is the greatest and Jesus basically says to them "stop arguing - You are all great and I want you to be greater still, but Simon is to be your leader. Simon is to lead you by being a servant to you and to the Church. That is why I gave him the keys and the title of PETER."

After the Resurrection, John 21reinforces Simon's calling to be PETER. We see this in full effect beginning immediately after Jesus ascends into Heaven and Simon calls for Judas' office to be filled by another and then by everything PETER does in Acts.

I think once it became clear to the apostles that it was the will of Jesus for Simon to be their leader, the symbolism of the keys to the kingdom of Heaven became more clear. Early Christians associated the keys with PETER from the earliest days including early artwork and graffiti in the catacombs of the Martyrs.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Faithful Ag said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

BluHorseShu said:

bigcat22 said:

One question I've always had is why were the disciples arguing at the Last Supper who among them will be regarded as the greatest (Luke 22) as this would have occurred after the events of Matthew 16 where Peter was supposedly given authority.
The question of greatness they were arguing I think is separate from the role Christ gave Peter. Jesus saying he was building his Church on 'this rock' wasn't because he was saying Peter was the greatest of them all. Jesus had reasons for choosing Peter. But they all had roles to play, just like all Christians have certain gifts.
Peter certainly had his faults too.

Jesus had his reasons for choosing Peter and I imagine knowing his gifts and temperaments were best suited for serving the Church as his emissary on earth.


Blu, I was going to respond along these lines, but decided to think about it before doing so. You have nicely articulated what I was thinking. "Greatest" isn't necessarily synonymous with "you are going to be the first person to occupy this office/position and hold these keys after I am gone".
Agreed. We also see many examples of the disciples not clearly understanding the words and actions of Jesus in the present moment. I actually think Luke may be the clearest example of Jesus explaining PETER's role to the disciples, even more clear than Matt 16 and John 21. The disciples are arguing about who is the greatest and Jesus basically says to them "stop arguing - You are all great and I want you to be greater still, but Simon is to be your leader. Simon is to lead you by being a servant to you and to the Church. That is why I gave him the keys and the title of PETER."

After the Resurrection, John 21reinforces Simon's calling to be PETER. We see this in full effect beginning immediately after Jesus ascends into Heaven and Simon calls for Judas' office to be filled by another and then by everything PETER does in Acts.

I think once it became clear to the apostles that it was the will of Jesus for Simon to be their leader, the symbolism of the keys to the kingdom of Heaven became more clear. Early Christians associated the keys with PETER from the earliest days including early artwork and graffiti in the catacombs of the Martyrs.


Good stuff.

What if anything can we say about the changing of names and the institution of a role or office? Are there Old Testament examples that might shed some light on the significance/relevance of a name change in terms of a role or office? Abram to Abraham comes to mind. Others?
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I can think of only 5 people who had their names changed by God in the Bible.

1. Abram to Abraham
2. Sarai to Sarah
3. Jacob to Israel
4. Solomon to Jedediah
5. Simon to PETER

I would say this places PETER in pretty exclusive company as far as name changes or Titles are concerned. Additionally, the significance of PETER's new name/title being associated with the Rock is something that would not have been lost on first century Jews. There are numerous references to the Rock in the OT and to the Jews God was "The Rock". When Jesus declared Simon to be Kepha he was giving PETER a share in the ministry of God, who is THE ROCK.


Examples:
"The Lord is my Rock, my fortress, and my deliverer; my God is my Rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior." (2 Samuel 22:2-3)

"for who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God?" (Psalms 18:31)

"Truly my soul finds rest in God; my salvation comes from him. Truly he is my Rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. (Psalms 62:2)

"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just, a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just he is." (Deuteronomy 32:4)

"There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God." (1 Samuel 2:1-2)

"For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a Rock." (Psalms 27:5)

"This is why God spoke through the prophet Isaiah, saying "Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." (Isaiah 44:8)





TSJ
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Faithful Ag said:

I can think of only 5 people who had their names changed by God in the Bible.

1. Abram to Abraham
2. Sarai to Sarah
3. Jacob to Israel
4. Solomon to Jedediah
5. Simon to PETER

I would say this places PETER in pretty exclusive company as far as name changes or Titles are concerned. Additionally, the significance of PETER's new name/title being associated with the Rock is something that would not have been lost on first century Jews. There are numerous references to the Rock in the OT and to the Jews God was "The Rock". When Jesus declared Simon to be Kepha he was giving PETER a share in the ministry of God, who is THE ROCK.


Examples:
"The Lord is my Rock, my fortress, and my deliverer; my God is my Rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior." (2 Samuel 22:2-3)

"for who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God?" (Psalms 18:31)

"Truly my soul finds rest in God; my salvation comes from him. Truly he is my Rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. (Psalms 62:2)

"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just, a faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just he is." (Deuteronomy 32:4)

"There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God." (1 Samuel 2:1-2)

"For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a Rock." (Psalms 27:5)

"This is why God spoke through the prophet Isaiah, saying "Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." (Isaiah 44:8)




All of those OT quotes naturally support Jesus as the rock.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

All of those OT quotes naturally support Jesus as the rock.

Which makes the fact that Jesus bestows the name/title onto Simon all the more significant. Jesus gives to Simon a name or association that up until that moment was reserved for God. He blesses Simon, gives him the Title PETER (ROCK), then adds to the blessing by giving PETER the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and the powers to bind and loose.

PETER was Simon's title. Jesus declared Simon the Rock. Jesus was trying to tell us something with all of the things he said and did for Simon. That's the point I am trying to make.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Faithful Ag,

I tried to send you a Private message but it's not working for some reason. If you have a moment please send me a PM. I would like to get your thoughts on something.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sorry, I don't have stars so I don't think the PM feature works.

You can email me at FaithfulAg@yahoo.com
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Sent
DirtDiver
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Peter has a unique place in history and has a specific role as an apostle. Apostle were ones sent by Jesus to introduce others to Him. Do people elevate Peter more than they should?


Interpretive options for the context of the passage:

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

Interpretive Option 1:
Peter is the rock

Interpretive Option 2:
This statement is the rock

15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven

I would make the case that the church is built on Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God.



  • shortly after Peter makes his confession, Jesus tells him, "23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
  • 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
  • I think you could insert Peter's name here... 1 Cor 3 or when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
  • 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building
  • 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Rock referring to Jesus

Romans 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
TSJ
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
To tag along with Jesus as the rock.

Ephesians 2: 19-22

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
DirtDiver said:

Peter has a unique place in history and has a specific role as an apostle. Apostle were ones sent by Jesus to introduce others to Him. Do people elevate Peter more than they should?


Interpretive options for the context of the passage:

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

Interpretive Option 1:
Peter is the rock

Interpretive Option 2:
This statement is the rock

15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven

I would make the case that the church is built on Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God.



  • shortly after Peter makes his confession, Jesus tells him, "23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
  • 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
  • I think you could insert Peter's name here... 1 Cor 3 or when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
  • 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building
  • 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Rock referring to Jesus

Romans 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Why did you stop at verse 17?
AgLiving06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Yes. Historically the rock, especially in the Psalms typically refer to a literal rock or to God.

While there are Fathers who saw the rock in Matthew 16 at Peter, we also have a sufficient number of fathers who understood the rock in conjunction with the Psalms as God.

That the other gospels focus on the confession of Peter as the Christ seems to detail what the intent of Jesus means.

Mark:
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
27 And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi. And on the way he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" 28 And they told him, "John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets." 29 And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Christ." 30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.

Luke:

Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
18 Now it happened that as he was praying alone, the disciples were with him. And he asked them, "Who do the crowds say that I am?" 19 And they answered, "John the Baptist. But others say, Elijah, and others, that one of the prophets of old has risen." 20 Then he said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" And Peter answered, "The Christ of God."

The Scriptures do support that Peter was, at minimum one of the three heads of the Church, we see nothing that leads us to believe the claims that Rome would eventually make.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
DirtDiver said:

Peter has a unique place in history and has a specific role as an apostle. Apostle were ones sent by Jesus to introduce others to Him. Do people elevate Peter more than they should?

Interpretive options for the context of the passage:

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

Interpretive Option 1:
Peter is the rock

Interpretive Option 2:
This statement is the rock

15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven

I would make the case that the church is built on Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God.

I would make the case it's BOTH / AND not either/or. One being true is not at the exclusion of the other in my view. You are correct that the church is built on Jesus, but you must be careful not to exclude how Jesus himself chose to build HIS church, which was on PETER (his chosen Rock) to whom he singularly gave the keys to his kingdom. Jesus blesses Simon, confirms the statement, then gives him the title of PETER, and then the keys, and then the power to bind and loose. He was pouring more and more onto Simon, and all of this was said specifically to Simon in the singular, not using the plural.

You are right to say that the apostles were sent by Jesus and therefore that all the apostles have a unique place in history. However, you do not seem comfortable with the idea that Simon was given a specific role within the twelve (or maybe I am reading you wrong). You ask the question "do people elevate Peter more than they should", but the one doing the elevating in Scripture is Jesus, not men.

Throughout Scripture God is recognized, identified with, and referred to as "a/the Rock". In Matt 16, Jesus conferred this unique association and identity of Rock onto Simon by bestowing on him alone the title of PETER. This is not to the exclusion of the other apostles who would share in this association as the foundation stones of the church, however only Simon was set apart as PETER, the cornerstone. Jesus did this for a reason and in no way does this take anything away from Jesus.

Also, don't forget that when Jesus first meets Simon on the shores, he tells Simon that he will be called PETER. This was long before Simon's confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Last point. The case I have laid out is not only about Matt 16:18, but also the many other verses and examples including Luke 22 and John 21. In fact, Luke 22 is in some ways even more clear than Matt 16.

DirtDiver said:

shortly after Peter makes his confession, Jesus tells him, "23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
Jesus was drawing on the scriptures that spoke of the cornerstone becoming a stumbling block - something both Jesus and PETER have in common for people - even today.

DirtDiver said:

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
I addressed this in my OP.

DirtDiver said:

I think you could insert Peter's name here... 1 Cor 3 or when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
I think if Paul - or more importantly the Holy Spirit - had wanted to insert Simon's name or PETER's title here in the letter to the Corinthians then his name would have been there. I am not attempting to change what was written, but rather I am trying to help today's modern reader see what was actually written.

DirtDiver said:

5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Rock referring to Jesus

Amen. The rock refers to Jesus, and therefore the rock refers to PETER. That's the whole point. Jesus laid the foundation of his one holy, visible, and apostolic church on the apostles and made PETER the Rock and cornerstone of this foundation.

DirtDiver said:

Romans 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Exactly. Isaiah foretells of the Rock and the Stumbling Stone, which is alluding primarily to Jesus and highlights why what Jesus does for Simon so significant! Jesus makes Simon the Rock, and then highlights that the same Rock can be a stumbling stone if he is not focused on the will of God but rather the desires of men. The prophesy of Isaiah applies to Jesus and Jesus applies the prophesy to PETER.

DirtDiver said:

1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
I say yes and Amen. Again, one more reason highlighting the importance of what Jesus did when making PETER the rock. It was more than a name change.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
To be honest I think you're going a little far with Peter as the cornerstone. Christ is the cornerstone. He is "the stone which the builders rejected". Christ is The Rock; Peter is Rocky.

The other observation I would make is I have never seen any patristic writing which identifies Peter as a title. And the various epistles don't seem to match this either (St Paul using "Cephas" as a name, and even St. Peter's own general epistles…)

And, St John's gospel has a chiastic structure like the other gospels with St Peter in a prime position (first / last) but this is contained within a second chiastic structure with the beloved apostle (St John himself) wrapped around that - a claim to equal authority at least insofar as his testimony goes.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Zobel said:

To be honest I think you're going a little far with Peter as the cornerstone. Christ is the cornerstone. He is "the stone which the builders rejected". Christ is The Rock; Peter is Rocky.

The other observation I would make is I have never seen any patristic writing which identifies Peter as a title. And the various epistles don't seem to match this either (St Paul using "Cephas" as a name, and even St. Peter's own general epistles…)

And, St John's gospel has a chiastic structure like the other gospels with St Peter in a prime position (first / last) but this is contained within a second chiastic structure with the beloved apostle (St John himself) wrapped around that - a claim to equal authority at least insofar as his testimony goes.

I agree with you that Jesus is the true cornerstone, and the stone which the builders rejected. However, this also applies to Peter in that Christ declares that he also is the Rock. The way I think of it is that God is the Rock, and we become like the Rock when we are living in Christ. He formed and chose the 12 to be the foundation stones, and he chose Peter to be the first, the protos, and the cornerstone of the 12 which is why he changed only Simon's name to be Rock. There is meaning in what Jesus chose to do here, but this in no way changes or detracts from Jesus.

To your second observation,I am making the case that every single time you read the name Peter in the Scriptures and patristic writings you are seeing the apostolic and patristic support. They are using his name as his unique identifier, in other words his title. I am not as well read or well-versed on the patristics as you are, but I would venture to say that they almost never refer to Simon without using the name Peter, although they might often refer to Peter without using his name, Simon. Jesus is the only one who exclusively calls Simon by the name Simon. In each of the gospels the writers make it clear that Jesus gave Simon the name Peter and the entire church knew who Peter was without any other descriptor or identifier needed. St. Paul uses Cephas in Galatians. Cephas is Kepha is Petros is Peter is Rock. It is all the same.

To your point on John the Beloved. There is no doubt that John and James were in the "inner circle" with Peter, and that Jesus wanted it to be that way. John was there for everything that Peter bore witness to, and even more because John was the only one at the foot of the Cross. Both were there for the Transfiguration and the Resurrection and everything else from the beginning. Nothing I am putting forward about Peter takes anything away from John or any of the other apostles. Each was chosen for a reason and each had their calling and their role, and each was given authority and a share in Christ's ministry. However, Jesus chose Simon to be Peter and gave to Simon Peter a responsibility within the ministry that was unique. Jesus could have made John Peter, but he didn't. He made Simon Peter.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Like I said. I've never seen any father write that it is a title. I'd be curious if you could find some patristic support for this.

And when St Paul calls him Cephas there's no article there. I don't think it works as a title without it. Likewise St Peter's letters… he just calls himself "Peter, an apostle…" And "Simon Peter, the slave and apostle…" it isn't used like a title.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Do you know of any examples in the patristic writings where they refer to Simon alone without also using Peter?
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Off the top of my head, they generally just call him Peter.

It seems relevant there was more than one Simon among the Twelve. Peter disambiguates.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Zobel said:

Off the top of my head, they generally just call him Peter.

It seems relevant there was more than one Simon among the Twelve. Peter disambiguates.

Perhaps, but that is not why they call him Peter, or at least that is not the only reason. In the gospels and NT scripture we see it made abundantly clear that Simon was called Peter because he was the Rock signifying his role in the church. There are plenty of examples where two or more people have the same name and somehow the patristics were able to disambiguate.

The fact that the patristics generally just call him Peter reinforces the point I am attempting to make. What we see in the Bible and in the writings of the early church is that Simon's identity becomes PETER. With the exception of Jesus, Simon is almost never called Simon unless it is with the name PETER. We see many examples of PETER being used in place of and without Simon. But Simon is rarely if ever used alone without Peter. It becomes difficult for us to see or understand the significance of this 2,000 years removed and reading Peter merely as a name and not a title of sorts.

Also, to touch on your comment about Peter just calling himself an apostle and a slave, etc… I think this speaks to his humility. In Luke 22, Jesus says as much when he tells the disciples that the greatest among them will be the servant of all. I am not making the case that Peter was running around flaunting his position and authority as the big boss or some sort of egomaniac. I am just making the case that we tend to overlook some of the evidence of Peter's role in the early church because when we read the name Peter we only see it as a name, but PETER means something more.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Or… it was a nickname that became his primary name, which is how it is understood by almost everyone. I literally have never heard or read this theory in any place but this thread. Several apostles had nicknames.

Mark 3:16 says (literally) the Lord added the name to Simon, Peter. Not title, name..onoma.
Faithful Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Zobel said:

Or… it was a nickname that became his primary name, which is how it is understood by almost everyone. I literally have never heard or read this theory in any place but this thread. Several apostles had nicknames.

Mark 3:16 says (literally) the Lord added the name to Simon, Peter. Not title, name..onoma.

I think taking the position that Peter was just a nickname that became his primary name is really missing the mark. How many times do we see God give someone a name or change their name in the Bible? Not many. And when God changes someone's name it means something significant. Furthermore, we see in the gospels that all four writers want to make sure we all know that Simon is called PETER.

Matt 4:18: "He saw two brothers, Simon who is called PETER and Andrew his brother,"
Mark 3:16: He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name PETER)"
Luke 5:8: But when Simon PETER saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."
John 1:42: "You are Simon Son of John. You shall be called PETER."

Matt 16:18: "and I tell you , you are PETER, and on this very rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you (singular) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you (singular) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

I understand that using the term "title" might not be exactly the right way to phrase what I am trying to say. However, I think saying PETER was Simon's title is much closer to the reality than taking the position that Peter was just a nickname that eventually kind of stuck. The reason I posted this topic is because I do think most Christians today read the Bible and see Peter more as you described than what I am proposing, and I think doing so is to miss what Christ intended for Peter and the church. The early Christians got it, but most don't see it today.


Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If the early Christians got it, where is it in the fathers?

Christ gave him a name. It has significance. But it's not a title.

There are plenty of patristic writings on that passage. None of them that I have ever seen share your interpretation.
AgLiving06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Zobel said:

If the early Christians got it, where is it in the fathers?

Christ gave him a name. It has significance. But it's not a title.

There are plenty of patristic writings on that passage. None of them that I have ever seen share your interpretation.

John Henry Newman has entered the chat...

The Catch-22 of it all.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.