In reply to B-1 83

B-1 83 said:

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Garrelli 5000 said:

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I wouldn't be surprised if the second shooter did most of the damage. It is hard to believe one guy could do that much to trained officers if we wasn't a sniper in a good position, or with an automatic weapon.

It would make sense that in the confusion they don't realize 2 people are shooting and only focus defensively on one person.

Or it could have just been crazy accuracy with rapid firing in a few seconds.

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Either this or some serious firepower. It's a safe assumption all the LEOs had body armor.

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From what I got, guy they wanted came out shooting and LEOS took him out. I imagine they then walked up on body and that's when second shooter got them- sitting ducks

Sad. I suspect were not seeing the whole arrest record. Probably released dozens of times.

Sad for the loss of the LEOs.

Doesn't take much training to kill effectively in the funnel of death. Doorway/hall way especially when an officer goes down. Some tier 1 units stopped clearing buildings in Iraq and simply used a bull horn "come out come out before we blow your house down"

News Media once they get the script. "In a mostly peaceful killing of law enforcement."

In reply to TAMUallen

TAMUallen said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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TAMUallen said:

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I don't understand why you wouldn't have some surveillance and apprehend outside of the home

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My thoughts as well. But at the same time, how many served warrants go sideways like this? One in how many thousand? This is an extreme case, but seems very rare statistically.

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I suppose so but I'm sure there's lots that you don't hear about as well. Seems so much easier, safe and cost effective to simply wait till they're out of a defensible position.

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if you try it on the street what are the chances the bullets start flying with a bunch of civilians around? Don't know that there is an easy answer if the warrant was high risk and arrestee was assumed armed.

In reply to AtticusMatlock

AtticusMatlock said:

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Full text of press release.

Quote:

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The preliminary investigation indicates officers were attempting to serve active felony warrants on a male subject. As officers approached, the male subject discharged his firearm striking multiple officers. These officers requested immediate response from other officers. As officers responded, the gunfire continued, striking additional officers.

In total, eight officers were struck during the gunfire. The officers were rushed to area hospitals. Three task force officers were pronounced deceased at the hospital. One of the injured CMPD Officers, Joshua Eyer, a 6-year veteran, fought for his life for several hours before succumbing to his injuries.

The male suspect exited the residence on Galway Drive with a firearm. Law enforcement officers perceived an imminent deadly threat and fired their service weapons striking the suspect in the front yard of the residence.

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Upon securing the scene, the suspect was pronounced deceased at the residence. The deceased suspect has been identified as Terry Clark Hughes, Jr, 39. Mr. Hughes was wanted for Possession of a Firearm by Felon and Felony Flee to Elude (2 counts) out of Lincoln County, North Carolina.

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There has got to be more to this than that. Seems pretty minor to go all in on an arrest like this with multiple officers.

Dart'em from helicopter Merlin Olsen style.

Problem solved.

In reply to TAMUallen

TAMUallen said:

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I don't understand why you wouldn't have some surveillance and apprehend outside of the home

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Warrant teams don't have time to sit and surveil. There are more people to arrest than their are resources. Spend a day waiting for one person or arrest a few in that same amount of time, that adds up.

More importantly, you don't want to get in a car chase or have this guy fighting it out on the streets in an uncontrolled situation.

There's no standard right answer. Every situation has it's own set of solutions.

In reply to TAMUallen

TAMUallen said:

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whatthehey78 said:

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TAMUallen said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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TAMUallen said:

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I don't understand why you wouldn't have some surveillance and apprehend outside of the home

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My thoughts as well. But at the same time, how many served warrants go sideways like this? One in how many thousand? This is an extreme case, but seems very rare statistically.

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I suppose so but I'm sure there's lots that you don't hear about as well. Seems so much easier, safe and cost effective to simply wait till they're out of a defensible position.

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I've always thought the same thing about "Koresh" (SP) and Waco catastrophe.

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Not to derail but I don't think they ever really wanted to take Koresh. On the same note, a lot of these raids seem to be the same. There's no worrying about killing the person/people with a warrant. Pretty sick but I understand their perspective as well.

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The agents on Koresh were all kinds of wrong. That's also like 3 generations of cops ago.

No cop want's to kill someone without a legal and moral justification. Not worth the headache, not worth risking going to prison. Any smart cop is prepared to stop a threat appropriately; the suspect sets the appropriate amount of force used.

In reply to one safe place

one safe place said:

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TAMUallen said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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TAMUallen said:

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I don't understand why you wouldn't have some surveillance and apprehend outside of the home

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My thoughts as well. But at the same time, how many served warrants go sideways like this? One in how many thousand? This is an extreme case, but seems very rare statistically.

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I suppose so but I'm sure there's lots that you don't hear about as well. Seems so much easier, safe and cost effective to simply wait till they're out of a defensible position.

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I agree, they almost always have better ways they could apprehend someone rather than no knock raids or attempting to get someone out of an occupied house or building. Different story if a hostage situation, but serving a warrant need not go down like this.

I suspect some of these "SWAT" teams are ill-trained and more than a few of these LEOs are caught up in the militarization of law enforcement. MRAPs and other vehicles. overweight dudes with AR style rifles (one hand always on the pistol grip in the photo ops), and this time it went tits up. Sad day for the families of the officers who died.

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Ironic that you use this to repeat the narrative about no-knock warrants. This is an example of when a no-knock warrant would have been a better choice. They are literally for suspect and situations just like this. If they had done a 4am no-knock this situation wouldn't have gone down like this.

Could you explain "militarization" of law enforcement. Then maybe explain how that works in situations like this or the pulse nightclub or san bernadino shootings or cartel dope grows. Should cops only have pistols for these situations? Do you think other citizens shouldn't have ARs?

In reply to TRADUCTOR

TRADUCTOR said:

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Dart'em from helicopter Merlin Olsen style.

Problem solved.

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Marlin Perkins.

How many warrants should be executed by just surveillance? If a task force has 100 warrants, do they need to have surveillance on all 100 targets and just hope no two of them leave at the same time?

In reply to James Forsyth

James Forsyth said:

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TRADUCTOR said:

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Dart'em from helicopter Merlin Olsen style.

Problem solved.

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Marlin Perkins.

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And his trusty assistant, Jim

In reply to InfantryAg Well said. We hosted quite a few SWAT departments for training at our ranch. Most departments that we dealt with had very high training standards and frequent training sessions throughout the year.
I did not witness any ill trained units imho. In fact I was quite amazed at their discipline and professionalism.

In reply to DOG XO 84

DOG XO 84 said:

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James Forsyth said:

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TRADUCTOR said:

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Dart'em from helicopter Merlin Olsen style.

Problem solved.

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Marlin Perkins.

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And his trusty assistant, Jim

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One of my favorite shows growing up, along with Wide World of Sports and The NFL Films show. (from the frozen tundra...)

In reply to Gunny456

Gunny456 said:

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Well said. We hosted quite a few SWAT departments for training at our ranch. Most departments that we dealt with had very high training standards and frequent training sessions throughout the year.
I did not witness any ill trained units imho. In fact I was quite amazed at their discipline and professionalism.

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That's all a good start but when the lead guy in the stack goes down blocking further entrance of the stack and is screaming bloody murder in pain, flailing around with weapons & gear, while squirting blood, under the sound of repeated gunfire, there is almost no training for this other than combat and even the Tier 1 teams lost enough men, that at times they stopped clearing for barricaded HVTs.

Was going to post this in response to the other guy who kept bringing up No knocks and blaming the LEOs but your comment on training this seemed just as good.

In the end others will learn from this....hopefully.

In reply to InfantryAg

InfantryAg said:

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TAMUallen said:

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I don't understand why you wouldn't have some surveillance and apprehend outside of the home

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Warrant teams don't have time to sit and surveil. There are more people to arrest than their are resources. Spend a day waiting for one person or arrest a few in that same amount of time, that adds up.

More importantly, you don't want to get in a car chase or have this guy fighting it out on the streets in an uncontrolled situation.

There's no standard right answer. Every situation has it's own set of solutions.

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Its been 20+ years but I or parts of my team probably did 25+ Pre Raid Surveillance Missions in an 18 month period. We were always the outside agency tasked for this by various LEO customers. To your point probably less than 10% of the Raids actually took place as scheduled. So yes pretty resource driven. Objectives were PID on location, any women/kids/elderly, dogs, any other hazards, sketch layout, etc.