Changes with the Corps

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EagleCamden
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10:09p, 3/7/24
AG
So....how does everyone feel about how the Commandant still hasn't back down from his stance for the new fish Academy in the fall?

BTW- All cadets should know that this will NEVER happen...so nothing to be alarmed about. Carry on.
If the Commandant doesn't stand down, he gets relieved of his services.
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45-70Ag
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10:18p, 3/7/24
AG
Relieved by who? The president who's an Obama general?

Yeah right.
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Phog06
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10:22p, 3/7/24
AG
Fish Academy? Who thinks of this stupid BS?
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aggiez03
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10:27p, 3/7/24
AG
I am not confident the commandant has changed his mind at this point.

It has been too quiet and unfortunately none of the powers that be made a public statement against the idea either which I was personally hoping to see by now.

I am afraid he will just let time pass then double down on his plan once he has his contract cadets in place that will do his bidding or else.
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kb2001
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11:05p, 3/7/24
AG
Probably an unpopular take on this...

It's not the worst idea ever. They did this in the 50s also, putting the fish out at Riverside campus in the old barracks, and only some upperclassmen were allowed out there.

His point is that every outfit does things their own way, and it's no longer one corps. The focus is on the outfit specific "traditions" and less about the unified corps way of doing things. His goal is to flush out the old culture of "we've always done it this way", and this is one idea to do it. Realistically, the way it's "always been done" is likely something new in the last 10 years.

This isn't new, the corps pushed the fish out to Riverside campus to flush out the culture of hazing that was getting out of hand. They shut down Fish Drill Team for several years to flush out the culture and get it back to precise D&C. Outfits get disbanded to get rid of a bad culture more often than you realize. This is a reset to get all outfits operating on the same page and in the same way, and to flush out that "sacred outfit tradition" that started 10 years ago.

I don't necessarily agree with this extreme of a change, but I understand why he wants to do it, and he's not wrong about the way things in the corps have forked and split over the years.
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aggiez03
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11:36p, 3/7/24
AG
Yes, if you want to get rid of outfit identity, remove all the D&C cadets, and make it a Reserve Office Training Corps, just like every other college out there, this is the way to do it.

We won't hit 3,000 cadets, and will be lucky to have 1,000 in a year or two.

Let's just say the response from future cadets has been "thanks, but no thanks, we are NOT doing that"

It will be a blood bath for retention of upper classmen and incoming freshman.
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Bryan98
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In reply to kb2001 • 12:10a, 3/8/24
AG
But it's never been "one Corps", in your words, not mine - outfit culture has always mattered. Or at least, it's been that way since at least the 60s. And it's good that there is a diversity of cultures. If we want to build a larger Corps, we need to appeal to more people. Some folks will want an outfit that focuses on athletics, or grades, or military precision, etc. Some folks will want an integrated outfit, and some won't.

What the commandant is proposing is a gigantic experiment that fundamentally overhauls what the Corps is. It could be a gigantic failure. It appears that most Corps alumni dislike the idea. You don't just upend things with your entire system because you got a wild hair.

If his idea was actually better, he could offer both things, and let cadets choose which kind of environment they want. I would still not be wild about that, but it would at least be scientific, and responsible. Drastically altering things based on his own intuition and putting everyone into the new system is foolish, and shows great hubris.
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aggie93
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In reply to kb2001 • 12:12a, 3/8/24
AG
kb2001 said:
Probably an unpopular take on this...

It's not the worst idea ever. They did this in the 50s also, putting the fish out at Riverside campus in the old barracks, and only some upperclassmen were allowed out there.

His point is that every outfit does things their own way, and it's no longer one corps. The focus is on the outfit specific "traditions" and less about the unified corps way of doing things. His goal is to flush out the old culture of "we've always done it this way", and this is one idea to do it. Realistically, the way it's "always been done" is likely something new in the last 10 years.

This isn't new, the corps pushed the fish out to Riverside campus to flush out the culture of hazing that was getting out of hand. They shut down Fish Drill Team for several years to flush out the culture and get it back to precise D&C. Outfits get disbanded to get rid of a bad culture more often than you realize. This is a reset to get all outfits operating on the same page and in the same way, and to flush out that "sacred outfit tradition" that started 10 years ago.

I don't necessarily agree with this extreme of a change, but I understand why he wants to do it, and he's not wrong about the way things in the corps have forked and split over the years.
The Corps pushed the fish out to Riverside because you had thousands of cadets returning from WWII and they had no space, they also knew mixing men in their mid 20s returning from war with 18 year olds was a bad idea. It's not like anyone looks back at that time as a good one. Except for this Commandant perhaps. I knew men from that era and they certainly didn't look at it as a great thing.

What you are suggesting is a generic Corps like the Academies. It simply won't work well here with half the cadets not taking contracts. We know it won't work especially because they don't want to emulate the successful outfits.
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mccjames
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In reply to kb2001 • 12:33a, 3/8/24
AG
Actually they put the fish out at riverside because of post war GI coming back and they had no room. According to my Dad, class of 54 and a riverside fish it sucked. You basically were a fish 1 year at riverside and 1 year at the main campus.

The Corps just like the Army, Navy and Marines is not about the orginazation as a whole. It is too large for you to feel a true part of in your first years, that is why outfits are always going to be the center of a fishes experience and your outfit will be where you know your home.

They did this crap in the 80's trying to disband "bad" outfits combining a good and a bad outfit making a mediocre outfit. It doesn't work because all things are cyclical. Outfits have good and bad years, outfits have good and bad culture in certain classes. It is part of the learning experience and imho part of the training.

Throwing more Trigon interference does not train future leaders, it holds them back.
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ValleyRatAg
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5:31a, 3/8/24
AG
I was in the Corps. My son will be a freshman in the fall. My buddies and I had him on the tipping point to join. Once these plans came out he decided he wouldn't join. There are others like him.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to kb2001 • 5:45a, 3/8/24
AG
kb2001 said:
Probably an unpopular take on this...

It's not the worst idea ever. They did this in the 50s also, putting the fish out at Riverside campus in the old barracks, and only some upperclassmen were allowed out there.

His point is that every outfit does things their own way, and it's no longer one corps. The focus is on the outfit specific "traditions" and less about the unified corps way of doing things. His goal is to flush out the old culture of "we've always done it this way", and this is one idea to do it. Realistically, the way it's "always been done" is likely something new in the last 10 years.

This isn't new, the corps pushed the fish out to Riverside campus to flush out the culture of hazing that was getting out of hand. They shut down Fish Drill Team for several years to flush out the culture and get it back to precise D&C. Outfits get disbanded to get rid of a bad culture more often than you realize. This is a reset to get all outfits operating on the same page and in the same way, and to flush out that "sacred outfit tradition" that started 10 years ago.

I don't necessarily agree with this extreme of a change, but I understand why he wants to do it, and he's not wrong about the way things in the corps have forked and split over the years.


Fine with taking lessons from outfits that recruit themselves and applying them across the corps. But the commandant doesn't want that, he wants to remove the things that makes those outfits recruit themselves. And still somehow grow the corps. It makes zero sense logically.
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n1mr0d
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6:41a, 3/8/24
He's got no sack. If he was so confident in his plan, he would share it. Where's the latest update? Still quietly working on it?

Placing leaders selected by DEI was a significant step down the path of a bland ROTC environment. Aggies care about legacy. Your outfit matters. The fish academy is still going to happen just going to be renamed. Same idea. Remove outfit identity and kill off esprit de corps.

He was a bad pick for commandant and time will prove this statement to be true. Corps recruiting and support will suffer. This is already happening. Prepare to give up more dorms to non-regs. Congrats, General.
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n1mr0d
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In reply to kb2001 • 6:44a, 3/8/24
You're correct. Unpopular take. The only 'reset' that needs to happen is with a certain frog commandant.
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fc2112
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6:53a, 3/8/24
I love how so many hear think they know better than the United States Military Academy, et al, on how to run a Corps of Cadets.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they Corps at the service academies are superior to ours in preparing officers to serve our country.
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TxSquarebody
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In reply to fc2112 • 6:59a, 3/8/24
For your sake, I hope you didn't pick a very tall tree.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to fc2112 • 7:01a, 3/8/24
AG
fc2112 said:
I love how so many hear think they know better than the United States Military Academy, et al, on how to run a Corps of Cadets.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they Corps at the service academies are superior to ours in preparing officers to serve our country.




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aggiez03
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In reply to fc2112 • 7:11a, 3/8/24
AG
fc2112 said:
I love how so many hear think they know better than the United States Military Academy, et al, on how to run a Corps of Cadets.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they Corps at the service academies are superior to ours in preparing officers to serve our country.


If he wants to run a military academy to train officers, he should go there.

That is not the publicly stated mission of the Corps of cadets at A&M

If you don't even know the stated mission of the Corps and its current ratio of contract cadets, you might want to sit this one out.
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TX_COWDOC
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In reply to fc2112 • 7:12a, 3/8/24
AG
fc2112 said:
I love how so many hear think they know better than the United States Military Academy, et al, on how to run a Corps of Cadets.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they Corps at the service academies are superior to ours in preparing officers to serve our country.
We turn out plenty of great officers. I know quite a few O5s, O6s and a couple of O7s from my time.

Don't Service Academy the Fightin' Texas Aggie Cadet Corps.
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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to fc2112 • 8:25a, 3/8/24
AG
fc2112 said:
I love how so many hear think they know better than the United States Military Academy, et al, on how to run a Corps of Cadets.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they Corps at the service academies are superior to ours in preparing officers to serve our country.
Apples / Oranges but I think you agree that there are many things the senior military colleges do better than West Point.

First, our Corps of Cadets has to interface with civilians daily.

Second, anecdotal I know but... in my Armor School class at Fort Knox, the graduates from Texas A&M and VMI were the ones who knew how to use the sink when the bathroom line got backed up at the gentlemen's club in Louisville but it was the West Point graduate who was throwing up in the Officer's Club van.

Turns out that social skills matter when you're not in uniform or no longer in a unit.
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japantiger
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8:54a, 3/8/24
S
Was not a member of the Corp, nor did I attend A&M. My oldest son Class of 2020, graduated in the Corp and is currently a serving Army Officer. I was a Marine NCO, 100 years ago.

I saw two glaring deficiencies in his Corp Experience.

Hazing culture and unqualified Sophomores and upper classmen responsible for training Freshmen.
  • No one should be responsible for training 18 year old Freshman that hasn't had some rigorous training on how to train young people...yes, there needs to be a certification
  • In addition, they should only be turned loose after having trained under supervision of more qualified personnel
  • The basics of what is allowed/not allowed varies widely across units
  • This is a basic that needs to be addressed under any new plan. I can see Sophomores being involved in training, but in charge of it, hell no. A training academy is needed if Corp students are to be the primary trainers.

Military vs Civilian leadership focus
  • Separate the two groups...the current co mingling just creates needless drama...
  • Service contract members should be on one track and college students on another
  • Different training cadres, different training curriculum, et al
  • My son's ROTC training was quite good...the cadre that trained him were well qualified and based on his performance to date, I would say he was well prepared for Army life

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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to japantiger • 9:58a, 3/8/24
AG
japantiger said:
Hazing culture and unqualified Sophomores and upper classmen responsible for training Freshmen.
I agree with you in principle however...

This is real life when you get out in the civilian world. Especially in this modern era of DEIB and diversity hires.

Not the first time I've been in this type of situation but I'm currently reporting to an immigrant who has no clue about American business or how to develop a technical team to perform work in the USA. It's far worse than just complaining about us not putting the new cover sheet on the TPS reports.

His manager is overseas and she has even less of a clue. But yay, women in technology.

I remember two particular sophomores that were just dumber than a box of rocks that I had to deal with as a fish. That type of environment prepared me well for being able to tolerate insane criticism and incorrect guidance from morons who are above me that I have no way to escape from.

To tie it back to the military aspect, when I got to my first National Guard unit, my Company Commander was an absentee leader who I couldn't go around and who was not capable of helping me achieve the goals that my tank platoon needed to achieve (thank God for a great NCO as my Platoon Sergeant, a great Mexican-American 1st Cav Vietnam Veteran who was one of my Tank Commanders and a 1st Cav Desert Storm Veteran who was my other Tank Commander).

My Company Commander was rated very highly though because... we were at 100% strength for our unit which was all that mattered in that era. Numbers outweighed quality in the eyes of the higher ups in the Guard. Similar to the Corps of Cadets where what is rated and valued at the higher level might not be in alignment with what you are working towards in your unit.

Anyway, I found it to be beneficial in the long run to be majoring in Engineering while getting dogged out by an untrained Drill & Ceremonies - Construction Science Major who espoused the virtues of not having to take complex Math courses. Tragically, not long after college, he took his own life.

But that's real life too. When I was in Denver, I worked for a crazy woman who had her own hazing ritual that she put me through. Shortly after I left that company and moved to California, I heard that she had a nervous breakdown. I like to think that her not being able to break me was a contributing factor.

In summary, yeah, we'd like to all have the best leaders with the best training but unfortunately, when you get out in the real world, you won't.
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mccjames
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In reply to japantiger • 1:25p, 3/8/24
AG
Totally disagree with your last part. But that is just me.

That is what makes A&M unique and different. If you just want to go military then don't join the Corps at A&M and go ROTC somewhere. You can dress up once a week and go to OCS and join your branch.

You join the Corps at A&M to be as diverse as possible leader in the military and in life. My experience is from several decades ago, but I have friends whose kids have just graduated and I think it still stands.
Easy come, Easy go
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MouthBQ98
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1:31p, 3/8/24
AG
Why not ease into it with an experimental unit or not a whole semester of fish training, but maybe 4-6 weeks?

It didn't take us that long at all as fish to figure out the basics at all. What took a long time was the attention to detail to get as near to flawless as possible as fish so life was a bit easier. I can see positives and yet negatives and risks in this pretty substantial change.

The question is if it would really fix problems or cause more problems?
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japantiger
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In reply to HollywoodBQ • 3:35p, 3/8/24
S
HollywoodBQ said:
japantiger said:
Hazing culture and unqualified Sophomores and upper classmen responsible for training Freshmen.
I agree with you in principle however...

This is real life when you get out in the civilian world. Especially in this modern era of DEIB and diversity hires.

Not the first time I've been in this type of situation but I'm currently reporting to an immigrant who has no clue about American business or how to develop a technical team to perform work in the USA. It's far worse than just complaining about us not putting the new cover sheet on the TPS reports.

His manager is overseas and she has even less of a clue. But yay, women in technology.

I remember two particular sophomores that were just dumber than a box of rocks that I had to deal with as a fish. That type of environment prepared me well for being able to tolerate insane criticism and incorrect guidance from morons who are above me that I have no way to escape from.

To tie it back to the military aspect, when I got to my first National Guard unit, my Company Commander was an absentee leader who I couldn't go around and who was not capable of helping me achieve the goals that my tank platoon needed to achieve (thank God for a great NCO as my Platoon Sergeant, a great Mexican-American 1st Cav Vietnam Veteran who was one of my Tank Commanders and a 1st Cav Desert Storm Veteran who was my other Tank Commander).

My Company Commander was rated very highly though because... we were at 100% strength for our unit which was all that mattered in that era. Numbers outweighed quality in the eyes of the higher ups in the Guard. Similar to the Corps of Cadets where what is rated and valued at the higher level might not be in alignment with what you are working towards in your unit.

Anyway, I found it to be beneficial in the long run to be majoring in Engineering while getting dogged out by an untrained Drill & Ceremonies - Construction Science Major who espoused the virtues of not having to take complex Math courses. Tragically, not long after college, he took his own life.

But that's real life too. When I was in Denver, I worked for a crazy woman who had her own hazing ritual that she put me through. Shortly after I left that company and moved to California, I heard that she had a nervous breakdown. I like to think that her not being able to break me was a contributing factor.

In summary, yeah, we'd like to all have the best leaders with the best training but unfortunately, when you get out in the real world, you won't.
So, because you might have to work for a "dick" or a "Karen", we shouldn't focus on ensuring the people training the new Cadets have a level of competency in both what to train and how to train aspiring Cadets? I struggle to get the logic in that. Yes, it is possible to overcome bad training. Why would you set up an institution that operates on that as an organizing principle?
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japantiger
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In reply to mccjames • 3:37p, 3/8/24
S
mccjames said:
Totally disagree with your last part. But that is just me.

That is what makes A&M unique and different. If you just want to go military then don't join the Corps at A&M and go ROTC somewhere. You can dress up once a week and go to OCS and join your branch.

You join the Corps at A&M to be as diverse as possible leader in the military and in life. My experience is from several decades ago, but I have friends whose kids have just graduated and I think it still stands.
I felt that way initially too. What I saw and heard in practice was ROTC cadets having their efforts dumbed down to the point of uselessness to accommodate the least common denominator civilian Corp culture.
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Bryan98
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In reply to japantiger • 4:31p, 3/8/24
AG
In what way are contract cadets negatively affected by what we call "D&C" cadets? I can tell you, many of the sharpest cadets are D&C cadets. There's really no correlation between whether one is taking a contract or not and how well they perform their cadet duties. Just for one anecdotal example, the outfit's guidon bearer is usually the sharpest cadet in their class year. In my outfit (which one the award for being the best in the Corps on a regular basis in my day), I think the guidon bearer was a D&C cadet for at least three years running when I was there. Or rather they ended up being D&C, because you didn't make that decision until after your sophomore year.

Many outfit commanders were D&C. Hell, the Corps Commander when I was a fish was D&C, and no one doubted that he was a very sharp cadet. Then, during his senior year, he decided to go ahead and take a Marine contract.
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mccjames
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5:19p, 3/8/24
AG
This is what makes the Corps special, IMHO.

My best friends are contract and D&C some did not plan on going contract that ended up going because of their Corps experience. It is a great recruiting opportunity for the ROTC officers.


Easy come, Easy go
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TX_COWDOC
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In reply to japantiger • 5:53p, 3/8/24
AG
japantiger said:
HollywoodBQ said:
japantiger said:
Hazing culture and unqualified Sophomores and upper classmen responsible for training Freshmen.
I agree with you in principle however...

This is real life when you get out in the civilian world. Especially in this modern era of DEIB and diversity hires.

Not the first time I've been in this type of situation but I'm currently reporting to an immigrant who has no clue about American business or how to develop a technical team to perform work in the USA. It's far worse than just complaining about us not putting the new cover sheet on the TPS reports.

His manager is overseas and she has even less of a clue. But yay, women in technology.

I remember two particular sophomores that were just dumber than a box of rocks that I had to deal with as a fish. That type of environment prepared me well for being able to tolerate insane criticism and incorrect guidance from morons who are above me that I have no way to escape from.

To tie it back to the military aspect, when I got to my first National Guard unit, my Company Commander was an absentee leader who I couldn't go around and who was not capable of helping me achieve the goals that my tank platoon needed to achieve (thank God for a great NCO as my Platoon Sergeant, a great Mexican-American 1st Cav Vietnam Veteran who was one of my Tank Commanders and a 1st Cav Desert Storm Veteran who was my other Tank Commander).

My Company Commander was rated very highly though because... we were at 100% strength for our unit which was all that mattered in that era. Numbers outweighed quality in the eyes of the higher ups in the Guard. Similar to the Corps of Cadets where what is rated and valued at the higher level might not be in alignment with what you are working towards in your unit.

Anyway, I found it to be beneficial in the long run to be majoring in Engineering while getting dogged out by an untrained Drill & Ceremonies - Construction Science Major who espoused the virtues of not having to take complex Math courses. Tragically, not long after college, he took his own life.

But that's real life too. When I was in Denver, I worked for a crazy woman who had her own hazing ritual that she put me through. Shortly after I left that company and moved to California, I heard that she had a nervous breakdown. I like to think that her not being able to break me was a contributing factor.

In summary, yeah, we'd like to all have the best leaders with the best training but unfortunately, when you get out in the real world, you won't.
So, because you might have to work for a "dick" or a "Karen", we shouldn't focus on ensuring the people training the new Cadets have a level of competency in both what to train and how to train aspiring Cadets? I struggle to get the logic in that. Yes, it is possible to overcome bad training. Why would you set up an institution that operates on that as an organizing principle?



Unqualified pissheads and white belts are usually not back as cadre. Every outfit has ****** bags. I had them in my day. Surprisingly, some even went on to serve with distinction even though they were slovenly cadets. It's all part of quantity over quality. Pisshead / fish interactions don't operate in a vacuum. They are 1st line leaders. They instruct. Teach fish how shine shoes, polish brass, gig line, campusologies, how to make a rack, how to take care of their buddies etc. You don't need an academy or pass junior level instruction to be able to teach these things.

You will still have bad actors. You will still have 18-22 year old making poor decisions.
The point of this discussion and concern over the plan is that removing this critical blackbelt interaction to satisfy a whim only hurts the Corps.
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JABQ04
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In reply to TX_COWDOC • 6:28p, 3/8/24
AG
I agree. I seem to remember the outfit, or at least mine controlling who could or couldn't train the fish. The 8 or so of us cadre were chosen and had some training for FOW. There were always butts and zips in the hallways watching and keeping us on task and pulling one of us off to the side to mentor or calm us a down when we got a little to worked up.

This is an outfit failure to train the heads and monitor situations accordingly.

And yep. Always gonna be ****heads. Every organization has them. Have them where I work, in my sons Boy Scout Troop, when I was in the army etc…
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mccjames
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In reply to JABQ04 • 6:36p, 3/8/24
AG
In my day there were 3 Sophomores, 3 Juniors and 1 Sr

In addition group and wing staff were there monitoring FOW. They were all selected for their leadership qualities.
Easy come, Easy go
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rackmonster
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In reply to kb2001 • 6:42p, 3/8/24
AG
kb2001 said:
Probably an unpopular take on this...

It's not the worst idea ever. They did this in the 50s also, putting the fish out at Riverside campus in the old barracks, and only some upperclassmen were allowed out there.

His point is that every outfit does things their own way, and it's no longer one corps. The focus is on the outfit specific "traditions" and less about the unified corps way of doing things. His goal is to flush out the old culture of "we've always done it this way", and this is one idea to do it. Realistically, the way it's "always been done" is likely something new in the last 10 years.

This isn't new, the corps pushed the fish out to Riverside campus to flush out the culture of hazing that was getting out of hand. They shut down Fish Drill Team for several years to flush out the culture and get it back to precise D&C. Outfits get disbanded to get rid of a bad culture more often than you realize. This is a reset to get all outfits operating on the same page and in the same way, and to flush out that "sacred outfit tradition" that started 10 years ago.

I don't necessarily agree with this extreme of a change, but I understand why he wants to do it, and he's not wrong about the way things in the corps have forked and split over the years.
They shut down Fish Drill Team for several years to flush out the culture and get it back to precise D&C.

I know this is a little off topic, but I was a member of the FDT a long long time ago. I have been back to A&M once in the last 40 years. I've heard some vague references to the "Fish Drill Team Mess".

Can anyone enlighten me as to what went on?
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JABQ04
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In reply to mccjames • 4:49a, 3/9/24
AG
Since I was a Q, and our incoming fish classes were
usually 30 or so, it gave for higher head/fish ratio for more personal interaction. I think it worked fine. IIRC it was the guidon, clerk, and 6 more. One had to be a female for obvious reasons. Plus it was 1SG, 3x PSGs, chaplain and then CO, XO, 3xPLs. As cadre all 3 upperclassman years I remember it being very regulated and monitored.

My butt year things were a bit different as we had to bring the fish in early and start BQ FOW 3 or 4 days early due to the football schedule. Only the JR/SR cadre trained those few days and it wasn't quite as intense until that Sunday when they met their heads.
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FrankK
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5:17a, 3/9/24
AG
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ValleyRatAg
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In reply to FrankK • 7:27a, 3/9/24
AG
Your post is in alignment with my son's thoughts. He said in your day it was an accomplishment. He looked around at one of the last march ins and said it looks like an accomplishment for girls and fat kids. Despite that we just about had him talked into it when all this crap hit. His words were I would join the Corps you joined in a heartbeat, not this woke BS.
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japantiger
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In reply to TX_COWDOC • 10:26a, 3/9/24
S
TX_COWDOC said:
japantiger said:
HollywoodBQ said:
japantiger said:
Hazing culture and unqualified Sophomores and upper classmen responsible for training Freshmen.
I agree with you in principle however...

This is real life when you get out in the civilian world. Especially in this modern era of DEIB and diversity hires.

Not the first time I've been in this type of situation but I'm currently reporting to an immigrant who has no clue about American business or how to develop a technical team to perform work in the USA. It's far worse than just complaining about us not putting the new cover sheet on the TPS reports.

His manager is overseas and she has even less of a clue. But yay, women in technology.

I remember two particular sophomores that were just dumber than a box of rocks that I had to deal with as a fish. That type of environment prepared me well for being able to tolerate insane criticism and incorrect guidance from morons who are above me that I have no way to escape from.

To tie it back to the military aspect, when I got to my first National Guard unit, my Company Commander was an absentee leader who I couldn't go around and who was not capable of helping me achieve the goals that my tank platoon needed to achieve (thank God for a great NCO as my Platoon Sergeant, a great Mexican-American 1st Cav Vietnam Veteran who was one of my Tank Commanders and a 1st Cav Desert Storm Veteran who was my other Tank Commander).

My Company Commander was rated very highly though because... we were at 100% strength for our unit which was all that mattered in that era. Numbers outweighed quality in the eyes of the higher ups in the Guard. Similar to the Corps of Cadets where what is rated and valued at the higher level might not be in alignment with what you are working towards in your unit.

Anyway, I found it to be beneficial in the long run to be majoring in Engineering while getting dogged out by an untrained Drill & Ceremonies - Construction Science Major who espoused the virtues of not having to take complex Math courses. Tragically, not long after college, he took his own life.

But that's real life too. When I was in Denver, I worked for a crazy woman who had her own hazing ritual that she put me through. Shortly after I left that company and moved to California, I heard that she had a nervous breakdown. I like to think that her not being able to break me was a contributing factor.

In summary, yeah, we'd like to all have the best leaders with the best training but unfortunately, when you get out in the real world, you won't.
So, because you might have to work for a "dick" or a "Karen", we shouldn't focus on ensuring the people training the new Cadets have a level of competency in both what to train and how to train aspiring Cadets? I struggle to get the logic in that. Yes, it is possible to overcome bad training. Why would you set up an institution that operates on that as an organizing principle?



Unqualified pissheads and white belts are usually not back as cadre. Every outfit has ****** bags. I had them in my day. Surprisingly, some even went on to serve with distinction even though they were slovenly cadets. It's all part of quantity over quality. Pisshead / fish interactions don't operate in a vacuum. They are 1st line leaders. They instruct. Teach fish how shine shoes, polish brass, gig line, campusologies, how to make a rack, how to take care of their buddies etc. You don't need an academy or pass junior level instruction to be able to teach these things.

You will still have bad actors. You will still have 18-22 year old making poor decisions.
The point of this discussion and concern over the plan is that removing this critical blackbelt interaction to satisfy a whim only hurts the Corps.
I like the unit structure. I see no reason to really change that....it presents logistics issues maybe with training, but I see no reason to ditch unit identity to solve what is fundamentally a training issue. The young men in my sons unit, plus those from other units that he met while at A&M; and whose paths have crossed in the Army is one of the biggest plusses of the Corp. The Aggie's represented in the Officer Corp is impressive. His Corp unit friends are a very tight group and all the Mom's from that group are very tight.

However, failure to adequately train the trainers is a huge liability issue. Given the level of hazing that still goes on, I don't understand how the administration is blind to this. I'm frankly surprised some Mommy, coupled with a SIP lawyer, hasn't already tried to burn it all down because Jr did PT against his will. Liability aside, why would you not want a state of the art training program for what is supposed to be a state of the art student organization/SMA?

As for separating contracts vs civvies, the general population trend on obesity, basic fitness, mental illness and medicated individuals in the 18-24 year old population is radically different vs 30 years ago. Those on contracts, are screened for all this...and while I can't claim that every contract Cadet I saw was a "recruiting poster" the difference vs the general population is stark. 77% of 18-24 year olds can't meet minimal military recruiting standards. Almost 2/3 of the current 18-24 year old population is taking some form of anti-depressant; half are morbidly out of shape. To train this group in the same way you train the top box of 18-24 year olds is a huge mismatch. If non-contracts want to train with the contracts, have them opt in. But to lump them all together is a huge disservice to one group.

Just one "outsiders" view looking in. I understand all the input from those commenting. It all has merit. My fundamental beliefs are that if you want an elite organization, training must be elite; or at a minimum at a level that sets it apart from the masses.
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