Powerbiscuit, it is called National Interest. 1) A separate help counter a strong Chinese power base. Hence it is good for the United States.

2) A broke up Soviet Union, until recently, was good for the U.S. to counter Soviet/Russian power.

Do not mistake foreign policy/relations/events for national ones. They are a different ballgame entirely.

I believe you meant to say, "it's called hypocrisy".

Call it what you will, it is how this and most other nations operate. Wishful thinking will not change that.

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I believe you meant to say, "it's called hypocrisy".

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So what's your point? I realize you weren't born yesterday but the US government has been, by your definition, hypocritical since the 1780's. You expect them to all of a sudden hange and act differently?

I guess this is my point.

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

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And how does that change what myself and Revenge said? That statement was hypocritical in and of itself.

Nice point PB, but as Stive has already pointed out, it was written by a man who not only owned slaves but was in the process of knocking one up too.

The man owned slaves? Wow. Everything he said or did is now discredited. I guess we need to ask England to take us back.

Extremes much?

You act like Americans should all of a sudden be shocked that our country is being hypocritical.....we simply point out that being hypocritical is the norm, and the shocker would be if they all of a sudden WEREN'T being that way.

You seem to have a hard time processing that. Hang in there.

It appears that you are having trouble processing the topic. Hang in there.

Our own government was formed by separating from an oppressive country. Our founding documents clearly state that is the obligation of citizens to resist oppression and tyranny. Our government has regularly supported those who have wished to depart repressive regimes. Our government is becoming an oppressive regime. Not only are they oppressive, the are inept and unable to perform the most basic functions of government such as protect the borders, observe and defend our laws, and manage the national budget. Our federal government is corrupt and unfit to lead us. Their own failures are bound to lead to our collapse. Revolution is unnecessary when failure is eminent.

That's so cute.

Carry on with your resistance then. Let us know how that turns out.

That's about what I'd expect from a sheeple.

Please list out your acts of "resistance" that you've enacted so far. You know...the ones you're obligated to do since our government is oppressing you and enacting tyranny upon you.

1. Talk big on an Internet forum.
2. Cut the tags off your mattress
3. Talk big on an Internet forum
4. Run with scissors
5. Talk big on an Internet forum
6. ???????????
7. ???????????
8. ???????????


[This message has been edited by Stive (edited 3/14/2014 12:41p).]

That's cute.

Thanks.


So now that Texas has ruled powerbiscuit out as a possible future Secretary of State.....let's get back to hypotheticals.

Does our current property tax/sales tax system generate enough money to support our educational system, current government structure, a standing army, etc., without massive increases? Would we in any way absorb the current social security liability/medical assistance for our senior citizens? Or just say, "You're on your own....good luck."? How much federal aid do our universities receive? Any? (I'm honestly not sure about that one). How much federal "business" would we lose? Bases, research facilities, ports, airports, etc? How much would we gain and at what cost? Do we keep a free flowing border with the US for the goods, services that we would need/want? Or do you try to recreate your own?

We are already paying for those things. Do you assume that our current income taxes stop or would they be redirected to the state?

Keep thinking, you might get it.

There's a gigantic difference in shared cost and self funding. So while this seems easy, the reality is much different.

So either play along with the discussion or go away. This conversation could be fun if there are "thinkers" involved as opposed to emotional reactionaries.



[This message has been edited by Stive (edited 3/14/2014 1:24p).]

Hey, I just addressed the simplistic questions that you posed. It's ironic that you didn't consider that we are already paying for those benefits, yet in your arrogance you repeatedly refer to me as unintelligent.

A better argument is that we are only paying for sixty cents of every dollar that we spend and we have to borrow the other forty.

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Hey, I just addressed the simplistic questions that you posed. It's ironic that you didn't consider that we are already paying for those benefits, yet in your arrogance you repeatedly refer to me as unintelligent.

A better argument is that we are only paying for sixty cents of every dollar that we spend and we have to borrow the other forty.

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I did consider it. I also understand the concept of large numbers and pooling. That shared costs in most scenarios are cheaper than exclusive cost. All of that equipment on those bases is gone when you leave. Texas has to start from scratch in very facet, and that's not cheap. A business owner's start up costs tend to be his most expensive; it would be the same here. Just instituting the basic infrastructure of a new country would likely come close to bankrupting us...heck it almost bankrupted the US in the early years and they didn't have NEAR the overhead and expectations that today's citizens/people have.

Food? What percentage of their own food do people grow today? 5 %? Maybe? By the time you got a system in place to distribute money to the elderly/poor in the state, so that they could provide for their basic needs, people will already be dead and dying from starvation. We don't grow enough of our own food to meet this need. Texas would have its own revolution on its hands before the US would have a chance to try and take it back. And don't forget....you don't have an army to put down said revolution....you handed that over when you seceded. Unless of course you think seizing the bases and said weaponry therein wouldn't be met with immediate violence from the States.

It sounds simple and idealistic....in reality it's expensive, bloody, and ugly.

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It appears that you are having trouble processing the topic. Hang in there.

Our own government was formed by separating from an oppressive country. Our founding documents clearly state that is the obligation of citizens to resist oppression and tyranny. Our government has regularly supported those who have wished to depart repressive regimes. Our government is becoming an oppressive regime. Not only are they oppressive, the are inept and unable to perform the most basic functions of government such as protect the borders, observe and defend our laws, and manage the national budget. Our federal government is corrupt and unfit to lead us. Their own failures are bound to lead to our collapse. Revolution is unnecessary when failure is eminent.

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Please explain the oppression you seem to be suffering?

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Food? What percentage of their own food do people grow today? 5 %? Maybe?

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Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. Texas is a net producer of food. We have grain, livestock, fruits, and vegetables that more than feed this state. Of the many problems we would face, starvation wouldn't be one.

Oppression? How about the massive and ever increasing tax burden we face? How about the massive amount of our income that is being used to fuel bankrupt social Ponzi schemes? How about the inflation of our monetary system that is causing the value our money to decrease? Our total tax bill has to be near 50% of our income. How about the IRS targeting political enemies of the administration? How about the federal government refusing to enforce the laws on the books like Obamacare? We may not be oppressed in the same ways as the original American revolutionaries, but make no mistake, we are oppressed.

I'm quite aware that we're a net food producer.

Being a net producer of food doesn't mean you won't have food problems. Here's a simple example that maybe your simple mind can comprehend. It's complex so I won't hold my breath....but here goes. North Dakota is a net producer of oil....but if they seceded would they have a gasoline shortage? In the short term, they would without a doubt. They don't have the refining capacity. Yes Texas is a net producer of food items, but we don't have the infrastructure in place to account for everything that's currently in a grocery store.

Just because we can export beef doesn't mean the rest of our food issues won't be strained and stretched.


It's like talking to by sisters 3 year old....

says the guy who said we produce 5% of our food

the tax burden we face is still smaller than in almost all of the other countries in the world that are worth living in. Unless you think ElSalvador and Uganda are worth living in.

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the tax burden we face is still smaller than in almost all of the other countries in the world that are worth living in

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Assuming taxation can become oppressive, at what point does it become so?

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says the guy who said we produce 5% of our food

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Reading comprehension dumb***. I said 5% of PEOPLE/INDIVIDUALS grow their own food. Not that Texas only grows 5% of its food need. When a tiny number of people can provide for their own needs, the ability to survive a transition of the magnitude that secession would require would be virtually impossible. I realize that's hard do you to comprehend, but you don't just decide on Sunday that on Monday we'll be our own country and everything will be a smooth transition and work out just fine. The society has become so complex and interdependent that it would be virtually impossible to pull off without significant pain (both literal and figurative). It was/is easier when people didn't depend on extensive systems for sustenance. America isn't built that way....not any more.

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I said 5% of PEOPLE/INDIVIDUALS grow their own food.

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Thanks for that random, made up, irrelevant "fact". The clear point you tried to make was that Texas could not feed itself. FWIW, much of our food is imported as it is. Merchants buy food and sell it. They do it in every nation in the world. Walmart would continue to do so if Texas were a separate nation. Your point is invalid and meaningless.

I asked a question regarding what percentage of people could/do provide/grow their own food. I asked whether it was 5% or not. I didn't declare that was the number. The point of that number/thought being brought up was that during a transition like a secession would incur, there will be a period of time where logistically everything will be in turmoil. If that happens for longer than a few weeks in today's society, people will go hungry. Most people in today's society can't provide for themselves in a period of that nature. If you assume that we secede, and the trucks keep rolling down the highway to fill the grocery store near you, I would politely disagree. Until it all got hashed out, the borders/highways/ports would likely be sealed and cut off. If the US wanted Texas back in the union (which they likely would) they could starve us into submission in a matter of months.

On that note, You haven't added anything to this conversation. Why are you here? Go back over to the politics board where you tend to hang out....everyone here will be better off for it.

Anyone else want to have a legit discussion about the advantages/disadvantages, challenges/issues with doing this? Prior to powerbutt showing up, I was enjoying the banter and thoughts.

[This message has been edited by Stive (edited 3/14/2014 4:24p).]

FWIW, I posted on this thread prior to you. I read this board and post occasionally when a topic interests me. I will continue to do so.

You have been a ***** numerous times on this thread and very condescending. If anyone needs to check himself, it's you.

I'd say we've both had our share of condescending comments which haven't added any value to the conversation. Try not to laugh at every different opinion that crosses your path and I'll try to refrain from speaking to you like I would an 8th grader.


So.....does anyone have (know of) any real numbers that speak to how much Texas/Texans pay into the federal government and how much we as a state receive? Someone alluded earlier that we likely pay in more than we receive....just curious if anyone knew that for sure or had real numbers.

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Assuming that secession would play out anything like it did in the 1860's is ridiculous. I'm not necessarily sure that that is the road we'll need to go down eventually, but if it is I am of the belief it could be done without much bloodshed and that Texas could fend for itself quite well afterward. Simply by being a republic which fosters patriotism, self-reliance, and virtue amongst its people we would be in a much better place than we are now wearing the yoke of government absolutely rife with corruption and growing less fearful of infringing on the Constitution each year. I don't care about being the citizen of a superpower. I'd rather cast my lot with a state and people that haven't abandoned the ideals that once made America great. I have no idea what will come in decades ahead, but as politics become increasingly polarized and the Bill of Rights becomes increasingly irrelevant to the suits in DC, a crisis point will be inevitable.

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"Peaceable secession is an utter impossibility."
—Daniel Webster, "The Constitution and the Union"

"I disagree with Webster." -Me.

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"I disagree with Webster." -Me.

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Funny.