Hypothetical: what would happen if Texas decided to secede from the union?

4,018 Views | 128 Replies | Last: 10 yr ago by SapperAg
Teacher_Ag
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AG
People that make absolute statements about politics and warfare usually end up discredited. There are so many variables at play that no one can say with certainty a) whether or not secession would lead to a viable sovereign republic b) whether or not with enough popular support Texas could separate from the US without bloodshed c) if there was a conflict, what kind it would be and if Texas would be able to endure it.

There have been valid points on both sides but there is no reason for people of whatever stance to pretend as though they know exactly what would happen and that those disagreeing with them must be idiots. Then again, this is a message board, where pretend experts flock to escape the offline reality in which no one in their family or circle of friends gives two effs what they say.
Smokedraw01
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quote:
"I disagree with Webster." -Me.


You wouldn't be the first secessionist to think he was wrong.
Teacher_Ag
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AG
Once again, this isn't the 1860's. This is the same as people who turn EVERY act of foreign diplomacy into the Munich Agreement. Context is important.
Smokedraw01
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But we can use the Declaration of Independence to fit today's "oppressions"?
Teacher_Ag
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AG
Based on all the **** happening around the world, I wouldn't term it "oppressions". But, you either believe that the Founders wanted our government to remain quite limited or you don't. Or, for the majority, you simply don't care. And, for the record, I wouldn't call myself a secessionist. I would far rather the US right its course. I hope that it will, but like many other Americans, I'm increasingly pessimistic.
BarryProfit
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Teacher, I suspect what you aren't fully considering is the percentage of fellow Texans that would not share your desire to no longer be an American. Succession would be near impossible if the majority or even the super-majority of Texans were on-board with the concept. The reality is that they would not, and as such the concept is even that much more impossible.
CanyonAg77
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AG
quote:
a man who not only owned slaves but was in the process of knocking one up too.

He didn't have children with Hemmings.
Teacher_Ag
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AG
Barry, I'm plenty aware of that. Refer to item B of my above response. At this point any urgencies for secession are drastic, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 20-30 years it gains much more momentum. Once again, that isn't my preference, but I wouldn't be surprised if it drifts in that direction. It takes the masses a while to see the writing on the wall.
BarryProfit
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That's what most people say who think their opinion is correct but everyone else is too dumb to understand so.

[This message has been edited by BarryProfit (edited 3/14/2014 10:09p).]
Teacher_Ag
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AG
Well, I can't expect all of you guys to see the light like I do. I kid, I kid.

But, seriously, I don't consider myself much if any smarter than the average Joe, but I do consider myself more informed and aware. Add on top of that that I tend to be a bit of a pessimist. At least give me credit for framing what I'm saying as speculation and opinion unlike some other posters around here.
45-70Ag
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AG
In 20-30 years texas will be such a democratic state thanks to immigration that any talk of secession will never happen.

Aggies Revenge
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AG
Canyon

quote:
The claim that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with Sally Hemings, a slave at Monticello, entered the public arena during Jefferson's first term as president, and it has remained a subject of discussion and disagreement for two centuries. Based on documentary, scientific, statistical, and oral history evidence, the Thomas Jefferson Foundation (TJF) Research Committee Report on Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings (January 2000) remains the most comprehensive analysis of this historical topic. Ten years later, TJF and most historians believe that, years after his wife’s death, Thomas Jefferson was the father of the six children of Sally Hemings mentioned in Jefferson's records, including Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston Hemings.


Monticello.org
Stive
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AG
I thought a few years ago they confirmed he had fathered at least one when they used DNA? Am I not remembering that right?
Smokedraw01
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It was thought to be either him or his nephew.
CanyonAg77
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AG
I think you'll find that the TJ Foundation is full of crap.

All that was confirmed is that a Jefferson fathered a Hemmings. TJ had a brother who was known for spending a lot of time down at the slave cabins.

One of the Hemmings descendant lines included one that the Hemmings family history claimed was a TJ descendant. That line had no Jefferson DNA at all.

If you want to read an opinion from someone who actually looked into the data and concluded it was a bald-faced lie, here's an article to read.

Wall Street Journal online
quote:
The claim that Thomas Jefferson had a sexual relationship with Sally Hemings began with James Thomson Callender, a notorious journalist and scandalmonger... he insisted that the president had taken a young slave girl to be his "concubine" while in Paris during the late 1780s. At the time, Sally attended to Jefferson's young daughters, who lived in a Catholic boarding school across town in Paris that had servants' quarters. She didn't live at the Jefferson residence.

Both John Adams and Alexander Hamilton—political rivals of Jefferson's at the time—rejected Callender's charges, because they knew Jefferson's character and had bitter personal experiences with Callender's lies.

The case against Jefferson was the subject of a yearlong examination by a group of 13 distinguished scholars, including historians Robert Ferrell (Indiana University) and Forrest McDonald (University of Alabama), as well as political scientists Harvey Mansfield (Harvard) and Jean Yarbrough (Bowdoin). Save for a mild dissent by historian Paul Rahe (now at Hillsdale College) the group concluded that the story is probably false.
BurnetAggie99
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First rule of order would be reestablish the REPUBLIC OF TEXAS MARINE CORPS.

I'm with Mameluke on this one. The US Marines would be one Gunny short and I'd be serving in the Republic of Texas Marine Corps.

Little history TXMC - The Texas Marine Corps served under the direction of the Navy Department of the Republic, and the duties of the corps were specifically ordained in fifteen articles passed by the Texas Congress on December 13, 1836. The corps was modeled upon the United States Marine Corps, but no post of commandant was ever established.

Marines served under their own officers aboard ship and ashore but were subject to the orders of the senior naval officer present. Pay and allowances were based upon those of the United States Marine Corps, and the uniform of the Texas Marine came from discontinued USMC stocks, changing only the buttons and cap devices to those of Texas configuration.

Surviving records show that when the warships of the first Texas Navy set sail to interdict Mexican commerce and prevent coastal depredations, each vessel had a marine guard. Capt. Fenton Mercer Gibson commanded the guard aboard the Invincible, assisted by Lt. Thomas Francis Ward; Capt. Arthur Robertson and Lt. William C. Francis served aboard Brutus. Lt. Thomas Crosby commanded the Marine Guard of Independence.

The primary duty of the Texas Marine was to enforce discipline aboard ship and to provide security at shore stations. Marines also acted as sharpshooters and boarders during engagements at sea. Texas Marines on the Liberty distinguished themselves in action against the Mexican Pelicano on March 3, 1836, when they joined the boarding party, quickly gained the deck, and secured the ship.

[This message has been edited by Burnetaggie99 (edited 3/15/2014 9:36p).]
BMX Bandit
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41%, or over 3.3 million people in Texas voted for Obama in 2012.

Do you really think they would quietly let the state break away from the US? This state (and all the others) are nowhere close to being able to peacefully secede.

compare the 1860 election results to 2012.
jickyjack1
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Crown Kia in Tyler would have a giant Independence Day Sale!
Rubicante
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AG
National and international corporations are moving their headquarters to Texas cities in droves. It would be nice if they didn't all leave.
dahouse
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AG
If we secede, can we provide language in our new constitution that only tax-payers can vote.

OK thanks.

Cody
Fightin Texas Aggie c/o 04
BQ78
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AG
quote:
compare the 1860 election results to 2012.


Not really a fair comparison since in 1860 your ballot was public and in 2012 it was private.

There were strong pockets opposed to secession, even in 1861 Texas.
huisachel
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IN 1861 the slaves made up a far larger percentage of the population here than blacks do now and they were not allowed to vote. I would presume that had they been permitted to do so they would likely have voted against secession in large numbers, seeing as how their owners were telling everybody that the election of Lincoln meant the end of slavery.

Of course they weren't allowed to vote, this being a white supremacy state at the time, unlike in our own enlightened times. (insert smirk here)

Also, there was a lot of intimidation of voters reported in 1861.

THe red hots got what they had coming to them over the next four years.

BurnetAggie99
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Sam Houston was against going the Confederate States but his views carried little weight among secessionists in Texas, who were the majority. This hurt Sam Houston political career. He tried to block his opponents from any official action. The secessionist countered by calling on the people of Texas to elect delegates to a Session Conversion in Austin. As a result 177 delegates were elected. Four days later a vote was held and by a 166 to 8 margin to secede. Texas then drafted a ordinance of secession which was approved by popular vote in a statewide election. Houston refused to take oath of allegiance to the Confederate government. The convention declared the governor's office vacant and administrated oath to Edward Clark. A few days after Texas ratified the constitution of the Confederate States.
huisachel
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every Texan should read the secession declaration for insight on what the real reason for the war was: hint: it had to do with slavery.

And what CanyonAg said is absolutely correct; somebody in the male Jefferson line fathered some of Hemmings' kids but not the one whom the slanderers claimed for over a hundred years. It was most likely the work of his half brother, a randy fellow who liked to play the fiddle and dance all night down in the slave quarters.
BurnetAggie99
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The Civil War was not fought over slavery, and although President Lincoln's Emanicipation Proclamation 1863 would attach a moral dynamic to the war, it had no legal bearing with regard to the law. The war was the result of the disintegration of compromise between the federal and several state governments regarding Article Six of the U.S.Constitution and the 10th Amendment...states' rights vs. federal rights. As new territories applied for statehood the question of slavery was not because it was morally wrong but because it would disrupt the balance of power in the Congress between the states. The Missouri Compromise 1820 and The Compromise of 1850 attempted to address the balance of power issue because it mattered whether or not a state would enter as a free state or slave state. The southern slave states feared that the growing popularity of abolition would render their representation useless in Congress. By 1857 the political differences between the north and south reached the point of no return. Led by Senator John C. Calhoun South Carolina seceded from the Union in December 1860 after Lincoln was elected President that November. Upon taking office in March 1861 (20th Amendment changes the month to January) Lincoln stated that he wanted to preserve the nation, and would not interfere where slavery already existed. Unfortunately, Lincoln's word was simply not good enough. On April 12, 1861 the south fired on Fort Sumpter in Charleston harbor thus beginning the Civil War.  
Smokedraw01
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Burnet,
First, please read the Seccesion decrees of those separating states. It was clearly about slavery for them.

You are somewhat correct about representation. The south was losing the HoR/Electoral College but they decided to change the rules to which they had agreed to with the Missouri Compromise. I'm not exactly sure what compromise you believe the North refused to give with the South,
Lastly, the South was upset when California decided to be a free state. They swore a state didn't have the power and that only Congress could do so, as they had with the 1820 Compromise and the Northwest Ordinance.

If anything, by 1860 the possibilty for the expansion of slavery had actually increase.
BQ78
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AG
The South was all for State's Right's except when it came to enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act, which was one of the big complaints they had in the Ordinances of Secession.

Please don't whitewash the impact slavery and the status of blacks in American society had on the whole Civil War thing. No slavery in America and I dare say there would never have been a Civil War or War of Yankee Aggression if you prefer.
BurnetAggie99
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It was entirely a consequence of the Southern states' secession, which occurred despite the undeniable fact that the slave states could not have hoped for better protection of slavery than that afforded by the U. S. Constitution — provided they remained in the Union.

Both Lincoln and the slaveholders well knew in 1860 that a constitutional amendment ending slavery would never be mathematically feasible. But Lincoln further understood that the South was gravitating toward secession as the remedy for a different grievance altogether: The egregiously inequitable effects of a U. S. protective tariff that provided 90 percent of federal revenue.

Foreign governments retaliated for it with tariffs of their own, and payment of those overseas levies represented the cost to Americans of their U. S. government. Southerners were generating two-thirds of U. S. exports, and also bearing two-thirds of the retaliatory tariffs abroad.

The result was that that the 18.5 percent of America's citizens who lived in the South were saddled with three times their proportionate share of the federal government's costs.

Campaigning At New York's Cooper Union, Lincoln, arguing for unlimited federal control of slavery in America's territories, seduced his audience with research disclosing how 21 of the 39 Signers of the Constitution, by joining elsewhere in various other acts of legislation that awarded this territorial authority to the U. S. government, revealed that delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention included a clear majority whose intent had in fact been that this authority be granted to the federal government.

But in 1860, the overriding issue of the day was not slavery in the territories: it was secession. And when addressed in this latter context, Lincoln's same research undeniably proves there had been majority intent among delegates to the 1787 Convention that each state was to retain a permanent right of exit. Ten of Lincoln's foregoing 21 Signers represented slave states. Absent a retained secession option, not one of them would have signed a Constitution that empowered the U. S. to prohibit territorial slavery. Alone, the Northwest Territory represented the potential in 1787 for five new non-slave states, which would promptly have reduced the Old South to just one-third of eighteen total states: and the Constitution they were crafting was to permit any amendment that was opposed by only one-quarter of the states — including one that could abolish slavery if six more non-slave states were thereafter admitted. Lincoln could not have failed to recognize that the Signers had been in agreement upon a right to secede, without which no constitution would have gelled at all. Accordingly, secession remained in 1860 a right both legal and honorable.

In the face of all these considerations, Lincoln could have proposed a Southern slave emancipation reciprocated by sweeping federal fiscal reform that would replace the protective tariff with a nationwide income tax. Instead, Lincoln's remedy was the catastrophic one that denied Southerners their exit by military force: which represented exercise of a federal authority conspicuously absent from the all-inclusive list of powers granted by the Constitution to the U. S. government. Such a transformative quid-pro-quo may or may not have proven achievable. But in as much as it was not even attempted, no Gettysburg visitor should ever be led to believe that the Civil War objective of the U.S. was anything other than preservation of its protective tariff in the Old South.
Smokedraw01
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quote:
The South was all for State's Right's except when it came to enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act, which was one of the big complaints they had in the Ordinances of Secession.


Don't forget southerners rejoicing at Dred Scott as well.

Tariffs and states rights were window dressing.
Aggies Revenge
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AG
What was the primary "state's right" they were fighting for?


Smokedraw01
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And what "states rights" were being violated?
SapperAg
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AG
Burnet, your analysis is so far off base I don't even know where to start. Why don't you start with the Texas articles of secession and tell me where tariffs play a role in that document. Perhaps you can also tell me the overriding concern of the authors in that document.

BTW, Calhoun was dead in 1860.

[This message has been edited by Sapperag (edited 3/21/2014 11:53a).]
Bighunter43
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AG
Sapper and others are right....one need look no farther than the Texas Ordinance of Secession to see what the Civil War was all about......SLAVERY!! (Yes, tariff's, State's Rights, Sectionalism...all had minor roles adding to it)
It was building up since the Compromise of 1850....the reaction of people in the North over Uncle Tom's Cabin, then came Dred Scott V. Sanford, Bleeding Kansas, John Brown's Raid on Harper's Ferry, etc..........all of the tension in each one of those had one underlying cause.....SLAVERY!

This link pretty much nails it:
http://aliberalthinker.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/what-was-the-main-reason-for-confederate-secession-in-the-civil-war-again/

[This message has been edited by Bighunter43 (edited 3/21/2014 1:08p).]
TheCougarHunter
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AG
We have more guns per capita than any state...the Feds would have a hard time taking it back. Not to mention we have the largest Army base right in the middle of our state that we could seize, among several other Air Force bases and Army bases. We certainly have enough oil and refining facilities as well as agriculture to sustain ourselves. We even have a space center (for what it's worth). Not saying we would win a full-out war if it came to that but we could certainly put up a fight.
Smokedraw01
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The US Navy will take care of those refineries.
 
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