Wow. Exciting last 10 or minutes in this one!
12:25p, 4/30/23
And Klopp pulls a hammy taunting the Spurs coaching staff with the Richarlison scoring strut.
M
M
12:29p, 4/30/23
And just to reflect, the guy who scored the game winner kicked a player in the face and was not sent off.
12:42p, 4/30/23
In reply to Mathguy64
Probably about time for them to fire every referee and VAR official and hold a week of open try outs this summerMathguy64 said:
And just to reflect, the guy who scored the game winner kicked a player in the face and was not sent off.
12:52p, 4/30/23
This Liverpool team may not be good, but we certainly aren't boring.
Same ref this game as we had last year when he failed to even card Kane for a high studs tackle into Robertson.
League should absolutely crack down on manager behavior. I love Klopp but he needs a reprimand (as do about 5-6 other EPL managers).
Edit to add that Klopp mentioned in his postgame that Theirre (sp?) said something unacceptable to him when he came over to give him his yellow. No specifics on what it was. Edit again to add that PMGOL says they've reviewed the audio from the game and nothing inappropriate was said. *shrug emoji*
Same ref this game as we had last year when he failed to even card Kane for a high studs tackle into Robertson.
League should absolutely crack down on manager behavior. I love Klopp but he needs a reprimand (as do about 5-6 other EPL managers).
Edit to add that Klopp mentioned in his postgame that Theirre (sp?) said something unacceptable to him when he came over to give him his yellow. No specifics on what it was. Edit again to add that PMGOL says they've reviewed the audio from the game and nothing inappropriate was said. *shrug emoji*
1:25p, 4/30/23
Never understood why managers go at the fourth official so hard. Is there anything that they could actually do? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but they literally have no run of play responsibility. They aren't calling fouls and they can't override a center ref or an AR. At least when players are screaming at a ref, you're going after the guy who made the call (not condoning of course but at least logical). These fourth officials are just standing there, waiting to sub on a player, and some ******* comes running at them and talks **** because they didn't like the job performance of their peer.
2:34p, 4/30/23
In reply to Dre_00
I've always assumed that at the high levels the whole crew is mic'd up and talks to each other… so coaches are directing messages to the main official through the 4th rather than going on the field and getting a card.
2:42p, 4/30/23
In reply to Dre_00
It was deserving Klopp pulled a hammy. Serves him right. That wasn't passion. That was just Klopp being an *******.
3:07a, 5/1/23
In reply to deadbq03
That seems unlikely to me. I highly doubt the 4th official is relaying to the center ref what the managers are saying to him. Maybe at HT or something, I don't know, but certainly not during the run of play.
6:55a, 5/1/23
In reply to Dre_00
But on the flip side if the manager is just berating the 4th official then I doubt he passes anything that may help said team along to the ref
I doubt he's saying everything, but if the manager makes a point of something he potentially missed...a player doing things but not being seen, he could relay major points during the matchDre_00 said:
That seems unlikely to me. I highly doubt the 4th official is relaying to the center ref what the managers are saying to him. Maybe at HT or something, I don't know, but certainly not during the run of play.
But on the flip side if the manager is just berating the 4th official then I doubt he passes anything that may help said team along to the ref
7:53a, 5/1/23
In reply to gougler08
I agree.
Maybe I'm naive, but I imagine most cases of berating are after repeated offenses where the coach has already said something in a more reasonable tone. I imagine there's a lot more interactions than just what we see on TV during a stoppage.
While there doesn't seem to be a ton of accountability, it is in a crew's best interest to call things right. And they don't get to stop and see instant replays like coaching staffs using tablets in dugouts can and us in TV can. So I imagine that an experienced crew knows that they can take reasonable coaches' comments to heart and pay attention more to certain things in the future. Some may even give an infamous "make-up call" if they realize they really did miss something pretty egregious. And I bet for other coaches, an experienced crew knows the coach is just a blowhard who whines about everything and they ignore him completely.
Maybe I'm naive, but I imagine most cases of berating are after repeated offenses where the coach has already said something in a more reasonable tone. I imagine there's a lot more interactions than just what we see on TV during a stoppage.
While there doesn't seem to be a ton of accountability, it is in a crew's best interest to call things right. And they don't get to stop and see instant replays like coaching staffs using tablets in dugouts can and us in TV can. So I imagine that an experienced crew knows that they can take reasonable coaches' comments to heart and pay attention more to certain things in the future. Some may even give an infamous "make-up call" if they realize they really did miss something pretty egregious. And I bet for other coaches, an experienced crew knows the coach is just a blowhard who whines about everything and they ignore him completely.
8:08a, 5/1/23
In reply to deadbq03
Yeah, it feels like in basketball that coaches can work the refs for a call or two in their favor throughout the game...I assume it's the same in soccer
9:22a, 5/1/23
I've never reffed a soccer game in my life but I still find that hard to believe. Basketball is a stop/start game where all 3 refs share responsibility virtually equally. They have different angles and positions but the play is never that far from them and any ref can make any call.
I don't think any of that applies to soccer. With the exception of offside and the foul that happens to occur directly in front of a linesman, soccer is intrinsically set up to be officiated by 1 person 90% of the time. A center ref already has a hard enough job keeping track of what's going on and being in the best position possible without a 4th official relaying to him that a player is habitually fouling or that the ref made an egregious error. That would be incredibly distracting and undermining. Kind of like a home plate ump calling balls and strikes, center refs have different ways of calling a game.
But most importantly, 95% of the time, the 4th official is not going to be any better placed to spot an infraction than a center ref. Unless it's one of the very rare occasions when something happens somewhere that there's no way the center ref could be reasonably expected to see it (i.e. well away from the ball, far behind the play, in the coach/bench area), then I would think the 4th official would keep his nose out of it during the game.
Could easily be happening though and I'm just flat out wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
I don't think any of that applies to soccer. With the exception of offside and the foul that happens to occur directly in front of a linesman, soccer is intrinsically set up to be officiated by 1 person 90% of the time. A center ref already has a hard enough job keeping track of what's going on and being in the best position possible without a 4th official relaying to him that a player is habitually fouling or that the ref made an egregious error. That would be incredibly distracting and undermining. Kind of like a home plate ump calling balls and strikes, center refs have different ways of calling a game.
But most importantly, 95% of the time, the 4th official is not going to be any better placed to spot an infraction than a center ref. Unless it's one of the very rare occasions when something happens somewhere that there's no way the center ref could be reasonably expected to see it (i.e. well away from the ball, far behind the play, in the coach/bench area), then I would think the 4th official would keep his nose out of it during the game.
Could easily be happening though and I'm just flat out wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
9:33a, 5/1/23
Fulham will be without Andreas Pereira and Tim Ream for rest of season. Both Liverpool and Man United have home matches remaining with Fulham, they should be a team mailing it in after those two losses.
9:39a, 5/1/23
In reply to Aston94
yep Ream broke his arm. huge shame as he's put together one of the best American field player campaigns of all time.
but to be fair, Fulham threw away their aspirations for the season with that FA Cup melt down
but to be fair, Fulham threw away their aspirations for the season with that FA Cup melt down
9:40a, 5/1/23
As a referee you work as a crew and you get help from your ARs and 4O all the time. They help with little stuff like direction of throw on plays in front of them. They help with fouls ij front of them and if they think they are card worthy and you aren't sure they can provide help the same as an AR. If there is something going on behind your back they help and tell you what happened. I want all the help I can get.
They are supposed to control the coaches. I tell my 4O or even AR1 when I don't have one to do their best to handle coaches and dissent. And if it gets to them needing me to come over someone is getting a card. In other words call me when you think they need that card.
4O also handle all the details needed for reports. So I delegate them the task of recording names, times, numbers, etc needed for a report for a yellow or red.
Short version. They aren't a potted plant. And in England that seems to be their job function. To be a potted plant.
They are supposed to control the coaches. I tell my 4O or even AR1 when I don't have one to do their best to handle coaches and dissent. And if it gets to them needing me to come over someone is getting a card. In other words call me when you think they need that card.
4O also handle all the details needed for reports. So I delegate them the task of recording names, times, numbers, etc needed for a report for a yellow or red.
Short version. They aren't a potted plant. And in England that seems to be their job function. To be a potted plant.
9:41a, 5/1/23
In reply to Aston94
Not so fast, my friend. Mitrovic will be back for their last 3 matches, so that ManU game in particular ought to have some fireworks.Aston94 said:
Fulham will be without Andreas Pereira and Tim Ream for rest of season. Both Liverpool and Man United have home matches remaining with Fulham, they should be a team mailing it in after those two losses.
11:41a, 5/1/23
In reply to Mathguy64
And add to that, they are speaking to each other nonstop in their comms.Mathguy64 said:
As a referee you work as a crew and you get help from your ARs and 4O all the time. They help with little stuff like direction of throw on plays in front of them. They help with fouls ij front of them and if they think they are card worthy and you aren't sure they can provide help the same as an AR. If there is something going on behind your back they help and tell you what happened. I want all the help I can get.
They are supposed to control the coaches. I tell my 4O or even AR1 when I don't have one to do their best to handle coaches and dissent. And if it gets to them needing me to come over someone is getting a card. In other words call me when you think they need that card.
4O also handle all the details needed for reports. So I delegate them the task of recording names, times, numbers, etc needed for a report for a yellow or red.
Short version. They aren't a potted plant. And in England that seems to be their job function. To be a potted plant.
11:58a, 5/1/23
Kealia Ohai and her husband JJ Watt are now partial owners of Burnley.
Incredibly excited to be joining the @BurnleyOfficial ownership group (and for JJ to have something to do 😂😂) UP THE CLARETS!!! pic.twitter.com/DRIMxPo6oX
— Kealia Ohai Watt (@KealiaOhai) May 1, 2023
12:11p, 5/1/23
In reply to Rudyjax
Actually they aren't. The R doesn't need to hear nonstop chatter. You learn to speak only when needed and in very specific ways. If you say "no foul no foul" and the comms blink on "no"… well you get the idea.
Chuck Cunningham said:And add to that, they are speaking to each other nonstop in their comms.Mathguy64 said:
As a referee you work as a crew and you get help from your ARs and 4O all the time. They help with little stuff like direction of throw on plays in front of them. They help with fouls ij front of them and if they think they are card worthy and you aren't sure they can provide help the same as an AR. If there is something going on behind your back they help and tell you what happened. I want all the help I can get.
They are supposed to control the coaches. I tell my 4O or even AR1 when I don't have one to do their best to handle coaches and dissent. And if it gets to them needing me to come over someone is getting a card. In other words call me when you think they need that card.
4O also handle all the details needed for reports. So I delegate them the task of recording names, times, numbers, etc needed for a report for a yellow or red.
Short version. They aren't a potted plant. And in England that seems to be their job function. To be a potted plant.
Actually they aren't. The R doesn't need to hear nonstop chatter. You learn to speak only when needed and in very specific ways. If you say "no foul no foul" and the comms blink on "no"… well you get the idea.
12:29p, 5/1/23
In reply to Mathguy64
Ok... I saw a video and the CR was speaking non stop to his AR and 4th.Mathguy64 said:Chuck Cunningham said:And add to that, they are speaking to each other nonstop in their comms.Mathguy64 said:
As a referee you work as a crew and you get help from your ARs and 4O all the time. They help with little stuff like direction of throw on plays in front of them. They help with fouls ij front of them and if they think they are card worthy and you aren't sure they can provide help the same as an AR. If there is something going on behind your back they help and tell you what happened. I want all the help I can get.
They are supposed to control the coaches. I tell my 4O or even AR1 when I don't have one to do their best to handle coaches and dissent. And if it gets to them needing me to come over someone is getting a card. In other words call me when you think they need that card.
4O also handle all the details needed for reports. So I delegate them the task of recording names, times, numbers, etc needed for a report for a yellow or red.
Short version. They aren't a potted plant. And in England that seems to be their job function. To be a potted plant.
Actually they aren't. The R doesn't need to hear nonstop chatter. You learn to speak only when needed and in very specific ways. If you say "no foul no foul" and the comms blink on "no"… well you get the idea.
12:33p, 5/1/23
I promise they aren't. Certainly not to 4O. And unless the AR is involved in play they aren't saying a word.
There is more communication when the ball is out of play than during it. But unless you have something to say it's not being said.
There is more communication when the ball is out of play than during it. But unless you have something to say it's not being said.
12:52p, 5/1/23
In reply to Mathguy64
There are lots of videos on YT. 4th officials recommending yellows, telling ref to allow play continue vs. blowing a whistle, etc.
Im sure it varies by crew, and with all due respect, if you don't regularly have comms in the games you officiate - I'm not sure you'd appreciate being able to lean on it like these top level guys probably do.Mathguy64 said:
I promise they aren't. Certainly not to 4O. And unless the AR is involved in play they aren't saying a word.
There is more communication when the ball is out of play than during it. But unless you have something to say it's not being said.
There are lots of videos on YT. 4th officials recommending yellows, telling ref to allow play continue vs. blowing a whistle, etc.
1:38p, 5/1/23
In reply to deadbq03
I have used them and know how to use them. I don't need to watch a you tube video for it.
deadbq03 said:Im sure it varies by crew, and with all due respect, if you don't regularly have comms in the games you officiate - I'm not sure you'd appreciate being able to lean on it like these top level guys probably do.Mathguy64 said:
I promise they aren't. Certainly not to 4O. And unless the AR is involved in play they aren't saying a word.
There is more communication when the ball is out of play than during it. But unless you have something to say it's not being said.
There are lots of videos on YT. 4th officials recommending yellows, telling ref to allow play continue vs. blowing a whistle, etc.
I have used them and know how to use them. I don't need to watch a you tube video for it.
3:13p, 5/1/23
In reply to Mathguy64
You're just mad that I'm not around to be your potted plant AR1 any longer.
4:06p, 5/1/23
So if I'm following correctly, the consensus is that 4th officials should communicate in game but not constantly and likely only in specific circumstances. But perhaps officials in England don't follow this philosophy as much as others might.
Is that more or less accurate? Because I will gladly defer to those with more experience in the matter. Still feels weird to me but I'll absolutely trust relevant experience over my weird feelings.
Is that more or less accurate? Because I will gladly defer to those with more experience in the matter. Still feels weird to me but I'll absolutely trust relevant experience over my weird feelings.
4:14p, 5/1/23
I'm pretty sure 4O in England just stand there and hold the sub board. They sure as **** don't say "yo referee, Kung fu kicking a dude in the face is a red card. You do have your red card with you don't you? I've got a spare set here if you need one." In fact I'm almost certain they don't even wear comms.
But yes everywhere else, certainly here in the US, they are part of the crew, mic'ed up and are expected to provide input on key match incidents if they have anything different than others and if the R asks.
But yes everywhere else, certainly here in the US, they are part of the crew, mic'ed up and are expected to provide input on key match incidents if they have anything different than others and if the R asks.
4:16p, 5/1/23
In reply to jeffk
I would never call you a potted plant. You aren't even green anymore. And I'm a withered old vine.
jeffk said:
You're just mad that I'm not around to be your potted plant AR1 any longer.
I would never call you a potted plant. You aren't even green anymore. And I'm a withered old vine.
4:23p, 5/1/23
Yelling at the 4th official has just become the en vogue thing to do for coaches to show their fans "how much they care" and "how passionate they are". It's all drama made for TV. EPL could curb it by throwing around some red cards, but they love the drama and ratings it brings.
5:14p, 5/1/23
In reply to Aston94
yelling at the 4th official is one thing. it's a stupid thing. but, i truly do not understand what Klopp was doing when they scored the winner. was that the in your face to the 4th official? i'm sorry was the 4th official dogging you Klopp?
5:07a, 5/2/23
PGMOL records all of their referees and are sending a recording of Tierney's comments to the FA. It supposedly proves that Klopp's claim that Tierney said something inappropriate to him is false. And they plan to release the recording after the FA make their ruling. I'd bet the FA charges him with a multiple game suspension since it's clearly not his first time. Not even the first time this season.
I actually like Klopp though his behavior is increasingly becoming petulant and pissy rather than passionate. He's becoming the Bruno Fernandes of managers. Uber talented but my god man, stop with your nonsense.
I actually like Klopp though his behavior is increasingly becoming petulant and pissy rather than passionate. He's becoming the Bruno Fernandes of managers. Uber talented but my god man, stop with your nonsense.
6:47a, 5/2/23
In reply to Dre_00
Agree he needs to be suspended, but for the behavior on the sidelines not the accusation of hearing something improper from the official.
Either he just decided to fabricate/lie about it hoping his bluff would never be called or he misheard. Seems really stupid to just lie to the press when you know there's proof of the lie available.
Either he just decided to fabricate/lie about it hoping his bluff would never be called or he misheard. Seems really stupid to just lie to the press when you know there's proof of the lie available.
8:06a, 5/2/23
In reply to jeffk
I just have a real hard time believing a 4th official is risking his future by calling Klopp a kraut. Lol.
8:32a, 5/2/23
just a nice gentle first game to ease big sam into it pic.twitter.com/qhqsh6tB8E
— Grace Robertson 🏳️⚧️ (@GraceOnFootball) May 1, 2023